Dyscalculia and Me

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Education

Lots of people are razzng Richard Cohen today for his column “What Is the Value of Algebra?” Background: Los Angeles high school students must pass a year of algebra and a year of geometry in order to graduate, and this requirement is causing inordinate numbers of students to drop out in their senior years. Cohen points to one student who failed algebra six times in six semesters, and who finally abandoned her books and disappeared from the school. He writes,

I confess to be one of those people who hate math. I can do my basic arithmetic all right (although not percentages) but I flunked algebra (once), barely passed it the second time — the only proof I’ve ever seen of divine intervention — somehow passed geometry and resolved, with a grateful exhale of breath, that I would never go near math again. I let others go on to intermediate algebra and trigonometry while I busied myself learning how to type. In due course, this came to be the way I made my living. Typing: Best class I ever took.

Here’s the thing, Gabriela: You will never need to know algebra. I have never once used it and never once even rued that I could not use it. You will never need to know — never mind want to know — how many boys it will take to mow a lawn if one of them quits halfway and two more show up later — or something like that.

Now, I detected some tongue-in-cheek, self-deprecating humor in Cohen’s article, but some of my favorite bloggers were quite upset by it. PZ Myers of Pharyngula writes,

Because Richard Cohen is ignorant of elementary mathematics, he can smugly tell a young lady to throw away any chance being a scientist, a technician, a teacher, an accountant; any possibility of contributing to science and technology, of even being able to grasp what she’s doing beyond pushing buttons. It’s Richard Cohen condescendingly telling someone, “You’re as stupid as I am; give up.” And everything he said is completely wrong.

Shakespeare’s Sister:

I’m not being cheeky. I’m genuinely wondering. Because he seems to have struggled so mightily with basic math that it suggests a possible undiagnosed learning disability, which isn’t a funny thing. It also sounds like the girl in his linked column to whom he’s directing the bad advice that math doesn’t matter—a girl who failed “algebra six times in six semesters, trying it a seventh time and finally just despairing over ever getting it” and subsequently dropping out of school—may well have an undiagnosed learning disability, too. And that makes his column not just ridiculous or ill-advised, but tragic.

The ever-gentlemanly Kevin Drum is a little kinder:

Cohen’s serious point isn’t really whether algebra is useful or not, it’s whether it should be required to graduate from high school. That is, if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout? I don’t really have an opinion about this, but it’s a serious question.

On the other hand, Cohen says he can’t do percentages either, and if that’s the case then maybe he should go back to high school.

Sorry, I’m with Richard. Yes, being math-impaired is a learning disability, and I have it. I recognized this years ago, and through all these years I have managed to work around it quite nicely, especially with the help of calculators and Microsoft Excel. I can even calculate percentages with Excel (something I really did have to do in my professional life), although not with a calculator. I’m not sure why that’s true, but it is. Before Excel, I had to ask people to do percentages for me.

I don’t believe I was born math-impaired. I blame the way math was taught in elementary school back in my day. We cave children would sit scratching page after page of the same rote math problem on our stone tablets, and there … is … nothing … more … mind … numbingly … boring than that. Working the problems was easy, but I would have rather watched paint dry than do it. By the time I was in third grade I was falling behind, and by fifth grade or so I had full-blown math phobia, and from then on I was hopeless.

On my PSATs I was in the 90-something percentiles in everything but math; in math I came in at 3rd percentile. Yes, that’s third, not thirty. I am not making this up. (As I remember I left most of the test blank because I was utterly baffled by it, but one of the few questions I did answer I actually got right. This must have saved me from first percentile.) In college I chose to major in journalism mostly because there wasn’t a math requirement.

I do consider it a disability, but if you’ve got to have a disability it’s a relatively benign one to have. I think that was Cohen’s point. He’s not opposed to math education. Nor am I; I am humbled and grateful that so many people can do math and are scientists and doctors and accountants and whatever. Civilization isn’t possible without them. But if you don’t have legs you’re not going to be a dancer. If you don’t have eyes you’re not going to be a graphic artist. I was never going to be a scientist. That’s how life is. I accept it.

Back to Kevin’s question — “if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout?” My answer is emphatically no. But the real issue, IMO, is math education, and whether math is still being mis-taught. The Los Angeles Times story by Duke Helfand to which Cohen refers says that hundreds of Los Angeles high school students are dropping out without diplomas because of the algebra requirement. “The school district could have seen this coming if officials had looked at the huge numbers of high school students failing basic math,” writes Helfand. Teachers complain that they spend much of the class time reviewing math concepts students should have mastered in fourth grade. And 44 percent of Los Angeles high school students flunk algebra the first time they take it.

It is absolutely pointless to try to teach algebra to teenagers if they’ve had math phobias festering, untreated, since grade school. Fuhgeddaboutit. But in all these years have educators actually come to terms with math phobias, how they form, and how to treat them before it’s too late? Not that I’ve seen.

So instead of getting irritated with algebra invalids like Richard, Gabriela and me, go yell at educators. Dyscalculiaics are made, not born. Usually.

Spotlight

102 Comments

  1. KS  •  Feb 17, 2006 @2:07 pm

    I went back to school a few years ago and I was required to take an algebra class. I asked the instructor to explain how algebra was going to help me and she gave me the same answer that I got when I took algebra in high school which is basically “you never know when you’ll need algebra but you’ll be glad you know when you need it.” I told her that worked the first time I heard it but that it had been 25 years since I last took an algebra class and had never needed it since then. I figure that the answer she gave me could apply to many things. Flying an airplane, heart surgery, tuning a banjo, making chili - you’ll never know when you are going to need it but when you do you’ll be glad you know how to do it.

  2. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @2:15 pm

    I did pass high school algebra, but I think high-school algebra in my day is comparable to middle-school level algebra today. As I recall I memorized formulae so I could pass tests and then promptly forgot them. Anything I learned in high school algebra evaporated from my head years ago. The LA Times article mentioned “polynomials” and “slope intercepts.” I have no idea what those are.

  3. jjk  •  Feb 17, 2006 @2:37 pm

    People are missing the point here. We should not be dumbing-down graduation requirements. We should be fixing the fundamental problems that are occurring during the truly formative years of mathematical education. If algebra teachers are spending too much time on concepts the students should have learned in fourth grade, we need to fix the fourth grade curriculum to make sure students are receiving the appropriate exposure to these topics.

    I really disliked English classes in high school. Why should I have been forced to read the classic literature? Was reading William Faulkner going to help me in my day-to-day life post graduation? Of course not. Why don’t we just put the kibosh on the English requirement? Do you see the absurdity?

  4. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @2:47 pm

    Do you see the absurdity?

    I do see the absurdity, and I have also been acquainted with Ph.D. scientists who had no more appreciation for Faulkner than I have for algebra. Yet nobody yells at them for not learning Faulkner.

    I am not opposed to teaching kids algebra. I regret I can’t do math. (I would have rather been good at math than not, but it wasn’t something I had a choice about. My brain is what it is.) I’m saying that there is a real learning disability that educators just don’t deal with. Had I been a dyslexic I would have gotten special help, for example. As I’m beyond hope, I try to have a sense of humor about it. And, as I said, I’ve learned to compensate. But I’m not saying this is how everybody should be.

  5. joanr16  •  Feb 17, 2006 @2:50 pm

    I’m on the fence on this one. I agree that the math-impaired are made, not born, and that poor teaching is usually the cause. (My 11th grade algebra instructor was my school’s wrestling coach, an awful, uninspired teacher who really didn’t understand the subject himself; I was further distracted by having an impossibly gorgeous, shy boy sitting across the aisle from me.) But Cohen is wrong, at least in that Gabriela will never need algebra. One day she very well could run a temp agency, where she assigns a boy to mow a lawn who walks out halfway through….

    Part of teaching is the “meta” aspect, that is, stepping outside the subject itself and inspiring students to understand how that subject fits in the big picture, and has practical applications in the real world. The stuff you weren’t good at in high school might come back to bite you later on. I was good at diagramming sentences in junior high, and today I’m a writer who on better days still knows an adverb from a gerund. Useful? Probably not. But to save, spend, plan, measure and build, I’ve had to re-teach myself to solve for “x”. Failing that, I’ll find someone who already knows math, but in any case I’d recognize the usefulness of that knowledge.

  6. Toni Johnson  •  Feb 17, 2006 @2:51 pm

    A lot of the problem with algebra is the teachers that teach it. I just made it through that class and then at the age of 53 I had to go back to school because of DOWNSIZING remember that word. Any way my brother in law who is a math teacher sat down with me and in one day I was able to do basic algebra. I also made it through life with out the subject but was happy to see it is not near as hard as I once thought.

  7. joanr16  •  Feb 17, 2006 @2:59 pm

    Toni, I love your story! Also, reading some of maha’s replies to comments above, I see issues raised here regarding high school curricula in general. Do we still need to teach Shakespeare? Physics? Spanish or French? I firmly believe we do, at a basic introductory level. How do we know what we’re good at, what we love, if we’re never introduced to it? But as for requirements to graduate– lord, I don’t know. Janie not knowing who Mercutio is, or how to solve for “x,” shouldn’t keep her from a high school diploma. But deep down I think that’s an education designed to ensure that Janie will be a fast-food worker most of her life.

  8. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @3:07 pm

    But Cohen is wrong, at least in that Gabriela will never need algebra.

    I took high school algebra, I believe, in 1968. The last time I was made to work an algebra problem was in 1972, in a typography class at the University of Missouri. Somehow, I’ve managed to avoid algebra since then. I admit that avoiding algebra has limited my career options, but like I said, if you don’t have legs you can’t dance, either. And I am certain that algebra must be extremely useful, but if you can’t do it, you can’t do it.

    And I think if a substantial number of Los Angeles students are failing to get diplomas only because they can’t pass algebra, then somebody needs to take a hard look at those algebra classes.

    A previous commenter said something about “dumbing down” education. Seems to me math education got “smarteded up” a lot since I was in school. My children were taught math concepts at a much accelerated pace than I had to learn them. They were working problems in 4th grade that I wasn’t exposed to until 8th grade.

    Perhaps the Los Angeles algebra requirements are unrealistically high, and students might choose a more rudimentary class that just teaches very basic algebra so that the kids know what it is and how it’s supposed to work. Then if they need to know more later in life it wouldn’t be too frightening to learn more.

  9. joanr16  •  Feb 17, 2006 @3:19 pm

    maha, I have a sneaking suspicion you’ve used forms of algebra and didn’t know it. It’s not always gibberish in parentheses, involving x, y and z. As an adult I figured out that algebra is nothing more than the ability to reverse-engineer an unknown quantity using all the information that is known.

    I think you’re right, though, that math education has gone all high-octane for the younger generations. But then, the little blighters have these phones they carry in their pockets that they can watch TV shows on. So I’m confused by their whole world, frankly.

  10. merciless  •  Feb 17, 2006 @3:26 pm

    Another aspect of this issue is the old macho beliefs left over from the 50s that Americans have to be better scientists than the pesky foreigners or else we’ll get blown up.

    What this belief always leaves out is that almost nobody is capable of being a great scientist, or even a mediocre one. Gifted people tend to find their gifts, whether they are taught or not.

    I truly believe that proficiency in mathematics is a skill you’re born with; like other skills, you can teach and learn to a certain degree, but no matter how many art classes I take, I’m still a lousy artist. And I believe the demarcation line is algebra.

    I’d like to see every American kid exposed to algebra, as well as to Shakespeare and biology and history. But I honestly don’t see any teaching programs out there today to make me optimistic that every American kid can LEARN algebra.

  11. Bonnie  •  Feb 17, 2006 @3:28 pm

    I liked math really well. All the tests we took every year, I got a 96 in math and 94 in English and 90-94 in all other subjects. My school counselor would look at the scores and tell me I should be an English teacher. However, I was in school when sexism was rampant. In the 8th grade, I breezed through my general math class. I wanted to take algebra in the 9th grade; but was told I was not smart enough. So, I took another year of general math. Then, I was able to take algebra in the 10th grade. I never had the teacher scheduled because for some reason we had student teachers for both semesters. I liked algebra because I like mysteries and I always wanted to figure out what “x” was. At the beginning, it was difficult and I asked my older brother who had breezed through algebra for some help. The help he gave me was that I would never have a problem in my homework without a sample on how to do it somewhere in the chapter. It was really the best tip I ever got. I had an A on every bit of homework and A’d all my tests. However, I received a B for the class. I asked the teacher, who had not taught the course why I didn’t get an A. His answer was that I had been too smart for the class. I should have taken it last year. I told him how I tried; but had been told I wasn’t smart enough to take in the 9th grade. The teacher added that if they had given me an A, they would have had to flunk the rest of the class because I was so far and above the other students. Wonderful.

    The next year, I took geometry and found myself in a class with all underclassmen because everyone had been able to take algebra in the 9th grade. I was very angry at the system. I didn’t do my homework except to memorize the theorums. Thus, I A’d all my tests. My teacher told me he hated students who didn’t do their homework; but, he couldn’t flunk me because I had A’d my tests thus showed I knew the material. He gave me a D. I was actually proud of that D. I was supposed to go on to calculus; but decided not to because I didn’t want to spend another math class with underclassmen.

    Today, don’t ask me to do any algebra. Not sure if I could. It was my first lesson in the fact that if you love something and work your tail end off to achieve; and it gets you nothing. It impacted my whole life.

    I had a teacher in business school who told me that she felt all learning depended on when children were ready to learn. If you push a kid who isn’t ready to learn, then the kid will probably grow to hate it. If you won’t let a kid learn when they are ready, you may lose that child.

    I was not interested in history; but, I had a teacher who was so enthusiastic about it, I discovered it was more interesting than I originally thought. The same thing happened for social studies and civics. The teachers were so passionate about the subject, they dragged most of us kids into their passion.

    I still like mysteries and read many of them. They are my preference for movies and TV. However, I believe that I don’t often have to do any algabraic problem to solve the mysteries I read and watch. Oh, and the tip my brother gave me about geometry is that I wouldn’t be able to play pool if I didn’t learn it.

  12. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @3:28 pm

    I figured out that algebra is nothing more than the ability to reverse-engineer an unknown quantity using all the information that is known.

    In past jobs I used to actually enjoy doing things like justifying actual invoiced costs against budgets using a spreadsheet, and putting in formulae so that if the number in cell 24H changed, the result in other cells changed with it. That was kind of fun, and maybe that was something like algebra. But I saw it as an exercise in pure logic rather than math.

  13. Rev. Mike  •  Feb 17, 2006 @3:30 pm

    I always thought I was incapable of doing math well and barely squeeked thru grade and high school classes with low Cs and Ds (while being at the top of my class in all other subjects). I too had a mild phobia about any math and dreaded it from the get go. Then my first year of college I was required to take a basic algebra class and had the most remarkable teacher. For some reason he was able to demonstarte and explain the concepts in a way that was instantly made simple and clear to me and I breezed thru the course with straight As. To this day I have no idea why he could do this and no other teacher I ever had could make it understandable, but he did. If that many kids are failing algebra in LA then I thnk they should seriously take a look at the entire math program from grade school on up. Math is nothing more than a language - if you can speak a language you can do math. But like any other language, if you don’t have a good teacher who can make it clear you’ll never get it.

  14. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @3:34 pm

    If that many kids are failing algebra in LA then I thnk they should seriously take a look at the entire math program from grade school on up.

    That’s what I’m sayin’.

  15. Lurkin  •  Feb 17, 2006 @3:41 pm

    Well, you can always find work at McDonald’s or Burger King. The cash registers there don’t have numbers, just pictures of whoppers, mcnuggets, etc. Of course, career advancement is limited, but it does spare one from thinking. As far as learning a foreign language, just talk louder or flash a few euros, but lacking champignon in your vocabulary means you’ll have a lot of trouble getting a mushroom omlette. The brain is like a muscle: the more you exercise it, the stronger it becomes.

  16. Kagehi  •  Feb 17, 2006 @3:47 pm

    Heh KS. If you are going to travel 300 miles on a freeway, how long will the trip take? I bet you can give me an answer, I also bet that you don’t have a @$@$ clue that your doing algebra to figure it out:

    X = Y/Z
    Y = 300 miles
    Z = 60 miles/hour
    X = 300/60
    X = 20 minutes

    Don’t give me the BS that people never use it. In reality they use it all the time, probably even the clueless nitwit that wrote the article. The difference between someone “good” at Algebra in schools and someone who thinks its useless is that the people that are good at it can do Y = miles = 300, while the people insisting its useless jsut don’t get the “Y =” part. They might have a harder time with, “How fast was Fred driving when it took him 20 minutes to drive 300 miles?”, but that is the point of the class, to try to teach people have to pick apart the question and find which ever answer you don’t have, be it the speed, the distance or the time it took. Even complete math dropouts can manage at least one of those, most can manage all three, even if the failed math.

    The real question is, why couldn’t the teacher get this through to them, not, “Will I ever use this?” Everyone uses it, they just can’t translate from doing it in their heads, to properly describing it one paper, or taking what is on paper and doing it in their heads. The lie is that most people don’t use it. Like most such lies, its designed to make someone feel better about not doing well the class, while making them feel good about, “Not needing it in the first place.”

    In any case, I have to agree with one poster on another blog. Why the hell is it reasonable to take the most technologically developed nation in the world and not only fail to meet the “new” requirements for us to understand it, but actually fail to even meet the basic education level that someone from the 18th century had? Does that make any sense at all?

  17. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @4:00 pm

    If you are going to travel 300 miles on a freeway, how long will the trip take? I bet you can give me an answer, I also bet that you don’t have a @$@$ clue that your doing algebra to figure it out:

    That’s just division.

  18. alyosha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @4:03 pm

    Echoing comments #13-14, the LA school system has a reputation of being one of the most dysfunctional in the country. It wouldn’t surprise me to see kids failing algebra repeatedly because they were mistaught the basics early on. I live in LA and hear horror stories far worse than this. Requiring mastery of algebra for graduation and seeing tons of kids dropping out wouldn’t surprise me at all for this school system.

    Others have made the point that knowing, or minimally being exposed to algebra - as well as many other subjects - can only help you in life.

    I wasn’t a brilliant student in math, I slogged through algebra, trig, geometry and calculus, despite being fortunate to have a fantastic high school curriculum and teachers. I use this stuff a fair amount in my vocation (software engineer) - I still keep a thirty year old college text on analytic geometry by my side. Even though I’m not nuts about math, I see a tutoring opportunity here. Thanks for posting this article.

  19. Swami  •  Feb 17, 2006 @4:03 pm

    joanr16, I agree with your comments.

  20. Tito  •  Feb 17, 2006 @4:17 pm

    No maha, that’s basic algebra. Division is a part of it.

    Ok, seriously, I’m sorry that many of you had problems with math, but seriously we are talking ALGEBRA. This isn’t calculus, much less differential equations or laplace transforms.

    I guess I’m old fashioned, despite being in my 20’s, but I thought the point to school was to be “educated”, not to be “job training”. Basic algebra is understanding basic numbers, it’s how to think. Just like the annoying stuff in English teaches you how to communicate.

    I will totally agree that our school systems suck horribly. But having the ADULTS agree that “you’ll never use it in life” is just awe-inspiringly pathetic.

  21. jjk  •  Feb 17, 2006 @4:28 pm

    10 = 2 * x

    What does x equal? 5.

    But, wait, that’s just division (10 divided by 2). No, Tito is right, that’s basic algebra, within which division is a necessary operation.

  22. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @4:30 pm

    No maha, that’s basic algebra. Division is a part of it.

    I realize that, but I could have worked that problem with what math I knew by fifth grade, if not sooner, without having taken an algebra class. So what we’re really saying is that kids need to know basic math and how to apply it. No argument from me there.

    I didn’t have algebra until high school. I passed high school algebra so I know what it is, but our high school algebra of the 1960s was comparable to what kids today learn in junior high (or “middle school” here in the East). And even then I’d cry over the stuff every night because it was so damn convoluted.

    And wasn’t Calculus a Roman Emperor? (Just kidding.) My daughter made an A in college calculus. I still don’t know what it is.

    True fact: My high school algebra teacher was the basketball coach, whose name was Bill Bradley, and he was kin to THE Bill Bradley. A cousin or something. Nice fella. Made no sense at all, though.

  23. toxmom  •  Feb 17, 2006 @4:38 pm

    Actually, Kagehi is correct. The driving problem posed would be typical of one that is in my 12-year old’s pre-Algebra textbook. No, it’s not as difficult as solving a set of binomial equations, but it’s still Algebra. Yes, the operation required is division, but that doesn’t solely define the type of problem. I also agree with Kagehi and previous posters that if we do not require Algebra, what else should we drop from the standard? Certainly not everyone is going to be a doctor or a solid-state physicist, but I think society is better off if everyone understand what function their liver serves, or can grasp basic concepts of physical science such as gravity, inertia, etc. I would love to see more literature covered in school, but frankly I’m too worried that kids (and adults) don’t even learn proper grammar. I find people’s misuse of English increasingly distracting, particularly in the print media and in blogs. It is amazing to me that people don’t understand the difference between the possessive “its” and the contraction “it’s” (short for “it is”).

    Side note: caught you on C-SPAN last week, Maha; you were great!

  24. paradoctor  •  Feb 17, 2006 @4:47 pm

    Speaking as a professional math instructor, I agree that dyscalculia is usually made, not born; that almost anyone can learn algebra given good instruction and relevant motivation. By ‘motivation’ I do not mean grades - I hate the grading process, it interferes with learning - but simple real-world uses of basic math. Math, like all technologies, tends to be opaque until you have a need for it; then it explains itself.

    In the case of algebra, the thing to understand is that it’s not about numbers but operations. _Which_ operations do you apply? Do you divide A by B, or B by A? Or multiply? Or add? These are not trivial problems, as my students’ homeworks attest; if you go by guess and intuition then you will mess up; the whole point of algebra is to solve these problems systematically.

    I love calculators, I encourage all my students to get one, but I also tell them that “it’s not the silicon” - pointing to my calculator - “it’s the carbon” - pointing to my head. The buttons are great, but which one do you push?

    Maha, you called reverse-engineering a spreadsheet quantity an exercise in pure logic rather than math; but you see, ultimately math _is_ pure logic. It’s _supposed_ to be simple, that’s the whole point. Maha, you are an algebraist without knowing it!

    Do not fool yourself that you don’t need algebra. You most definitely do, and fairly advanced algebra at that, to not get eaten alive in the money world. Exponentials, logarithms; know these intimately or be some banker’s lunch. When I was shopping for a home mortgage loan, I re-derived the amortization formula, input it into my calculator, and brought the machine with me to every interview. It was my sword and my shield.

    The East Asians are much more in a math-for-the-people mode than are we; which to my mind plainly foretells how the 21st century will turn out.

  25. samiam  •  Feb 17, 2006 @4:51 pm

    It all comes down to finding teachers who know how to teach! The same thing applies to foreign language and even computer teachers. Some have a moderate ability to impart the knowlege to a some, some have a gift of making it clear to almost everyone. It requires imagination -which is in very short supply. Just look at what teacher education classes require. Talk about a deadening subject.
    If you can imagine and understand why someone isn’t getting it, you can explain it more clearly. (Assuming you, the teacher, really understand it.) Add enthusiasm for your subject and there you have it.
    A good teacher also has empathy for his/her student and no weak ego that thrives on being smarter than thou.

  26. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @4:55 pm

    toxmom — thank you. I think what I’m saying is that some of us learn math concepts in different ways than from algebra class. I hated math with a blazing passion from first grade on. Originally I hated it because it bored me out of my socks but eventually because the stuff they taught us on the blackboard always seemed like the most absurdly convoluted way to come up with information.

    It’s like teaching reading. Some kids might benefit from learning phonics. Others probably don’t. I wasn’t taught phonics and my reading speed and comprehension levels always were way ahead of my grade level. I suspect if I’d been taught by the phonics method I would have been bored out of my socks by reading, too, and would today be illiterate. Fortunately it was something I caught on to without formal education getting in the way.

    But math, oh please, math was so absolutely horrible. If I really need to know something involving numbers I can apply logic and figure out the steps I need to come up with the answers. I could do that before I took algebra. Algebra was just a nuisance. As I said above I could memorize formula and get by on tests but most of the time I had no idea what the teacher was talking about, and it’s all evaporated out of my head now. If I had to pass high school algebra now I doubt that I could. Yet as I learned years later I can calculate quite complicated math problems if I can put them on an Excel spreadsheet. It helps me visualize it all, I guess.

    I really think that the way math is taught fails a lot of us.

  27. Davebo  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:03 pm

    Well, to be fair the subject of Cohen’s article wasn’t math impaired as Cohen implies but rather attendence impaired as the LA Times article points out.

    Seidel did not appear to make a difference with Gabriela Ocampo. She failed his class in the fall of 2004 — her sixth and final semester of Fs in algebra.

    But Gabriela didn’t give Seidel much of a chance; she skipped 62 of 93 days that semester.

  28. KS  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:05 pm

    “If you are going to travel 300 miles on a freeway, how long will the trip take? I bet you can give me an answer, I also bet that you don’t have a @$@$ clue that your doing algebra to figure it out:

    X = Y/Z
    Y = 300 miles
    Z = 60 miles/hour
    X = 300/60
    X = 20 minutes”

    You left out the 7 15 minute rest stops for the kids, an hour for lunch and 45 minutes to go back for whatever it was that my wife forgot and can’t live without for 72 hours. Not to mention the constrution in Atlanta and the reptile farm. But that’s OK, my algebra teacher wouldn’t have accepted 15 hours for an answer either. Look, oranges. Slow down, we need to stop there.

  29. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:10 pm

    Davebo — if someone had forced me to take the same damnfool algebra class for a sixth time after I failed it five times, I’d probably skip most of the classes, too.

  30. Swami  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:14 pm

    KS…The reptile farm is a rip off, save your money..don’t stop there.

  31. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:18 pm

    Is the reptile farm x or y?

  32. Steve Nichols  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:27 pm

    Maha, I don’t buy the 3% math number you cited. If your math talent was really that bad, you’d need help figuring out how many shoes to put on your feet.

  33. biggerbox  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:34 pm

    One problem is the confusion between teaching mathematical concepts and reasoning and teaching mind-numbing equation solving that bore people to death. I believe we, as citizens in a technologically advanced society, need to be able to understand mathematical concepts. But just as we don’t teach literary concepts and humanities by making people sit and only correct the grammar in disconnected sentences, we shouldn’t be teaching abstract concepts of algebra, or statistical analysis, by making kids solve disconnected equations. We have a system that, while it should be teaching people thinking skills, is designed to do something else.

  34. Steve Nichols  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:35 pm

    Instead of giving a generic diploma, give out a diploma that lists the student’s achievements and strengths. If a person can’t do algebra, that should be reflected on his/her diploma. But so should the fact that this person is tenacious and driven. I’ll find a place for workers like that anytime; fit them to their non-algebraic talents and you’ve got a winner.

    I think we should emphasize the fundamentals while providing children the opportunity to explore their interests, which will often lead to their talents.

    I don’t think public schools should offer programs that will cater to all the various human talents, but I think that public schools in cooperation with other parts of a community (athletic programs, public parks, local theater, local music groups, etc.) can offer every American the opportunity to develop their talents.

    Still, the fundamentals have to addressed. People generally need to be able to read and to compose a coherent sentence. Physical fitness, walking, yoga, sports, health information, needs to be part of any good education. If you can’t count to a thousand, good luck with your monthly expenses.

  35. mannyk  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:35 pm

    I have mixed feelings about requiring algebra for
    high school students.
    The case against it is based on the fact that algebra will seldom
    if never be used by most people . Those in the sciences and especially engineers however use it constantly. It ought to be
    possible to devise an algebra course that teaches the concepts
    rather than the boring word problems. However this was tried
    with the “new math” where the abstractions of math were taught
    and was a total failure. The basic problem was that the immature
    mind is not ready to absorb abstractions. Also using an abstraction
    to solve a specific problem requires thought and logic . Thought
    is something most teenagers are not fond of. while their hormones are flooding their brain.
    The case for algebra is that the education establishment worldwide
    thinks that it is a necessary part of “higher”education. They think this way because they have always done it this way and because Asian students are great at algebra.There is nothing inrinsically difficult about algebra but its concepts are unusual.and abstract.
    If algebra is to be successfully taught in high school it requires an excellent teacher. Since these are scarce it ought not to be taught until college. However since changing the way things are done now is unlikely no doubt more and more students will fail.algebra.
    Lest this cynicism be deemed unfounded I’m a retired electrical
    engineer who is very familiar with algebra,trig,calculus etc

  36. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:37 pm

    Steve, the third percentile thing is absolutely true. I am not kidding. My mother just about passed out.

    As I said, I didn’t even answer most of the questions. I answered about five of them, and one question I actually got right. I remember because it was a trick question that we worked in math class later. Oddly, I was the one who saw the trick, and the “math smart” kids didn’t.

    I have no problem with logic. I am very good with analolgies, in fact. We took some test called the “Ohio Psychological” test that was all analogies, and I was in the 99th percentile. But the PSAT math section was just jibberish to me. It’s a learning disability, I tell you.

  37. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:40 pm

    One problem is the confusion between teaching mathematical concepts and reasoning and teaching mind-numbing equation solving that bore people to death.

    Amen.

  38. KS  •  Feb 17, 2006 @5:50 pm

    I know the reptile farm is a ripoff but it was either that or Disney World. Too bad Weeki Wachi got all cleaned up & family friendly.

  39. Patricia Shillingburg  •  Feb 17, 2006 @6:03 pm

    Although we all don’t have aptitudes for certain things and real capabilities for others, most basic stuff we could never grasp was probably the fault of the teacher or the text book. The year my son studied multiplication and division, the teacher never got to division and the school assigned the mothers the task of teaching division that summer. I could never understand the text book, so I ended up ignoring it and taught my son to do division the way I had learned some 25 years before. He grasped it immediately, but the school was furious with me because the teacher that fall could not figure out how he got the right answers. Then there was the English teacher a few years later who insisted that the same son who had written all of his papers in sixth grade on our Apple II Plus had to hand write them in seventh grade because she was convinced that the computer was writing the papers. Luckily, he also had some really wonderful teachers, still loves to learn, is an architect, and this semester, after having worked on the 9/11 memorial for two years straight, has taken a break and is teaching architecture at university. All of you who could not learn algebra probably had lousy teachers.

  40. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @7:11 pm

    Well, you can always find work at McDonald’s or Burger King. The cash registers there don’t have numbers, just pictures of whoppers, mcnuggets, etc. Of course, career advancement is limited, but it does spare one from thinking.

    In my last job I was a production manager of teacher editions and multimedia ancillaries to elementary education textbooks for McGraw Hill. Pays a bit better than McDonald’s. One of the last textbooks series I worked on was math, in fact. Heh. But now I just write.

  41. marky  •  Feb 17, 2006 @7:34 pm

    People like you are part of the problem, maha.
    Why do so many kids struggle with math?
    I think the reason is simply that math is hard, and takes more struggle than other subjects… and it’s a very dry subject for a kid.
    Is there a way to make arithmetic drills exciting? Not really, but they are an essential part of math education.
    Are there some kids who just are not able to do math? Sure, but since we don’t know how many, let’s focus on what can be improved.

    1) Admit math is hard, and involves a struggle, and help your child accept this fact. It’s important to learn to be able to apply yourself to things that are difficult.

    2) I agree that better math teachers are needed, especially at lower levels. This takes more money, but beyond that, it requires an atmosphere of respect for math teachers. Do you think math teachers like it when parents introduce themselves with “Oh hi, you’re the math teacher. I hate math”. That is just plain rude.
    And “Hey math teacher. I never needed math, it was just a waste” doesn’t help either.

    Foreigners can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that intense math hatred is a mostly American phenomenon, an expression of the long-standing anti-intellectualism in this country, the mental lassitude that breeds supporters for fascists like Bush.

  42. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @7:48 pm

    People like you are part of the problem, maha. … Foreigners can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that intense math hatred is a mostly American phenomenon, an expression of the long-standing anti-intellectualism in this country, the mental lassitude that breeds supporters for fascists like Bush.

    And may I say that people like you are just plain stupid. I am among the least anti-intellectual people you ever had the privilege of addressing. I admire true intellectualism and take some pride in being intellectual myself. Being math impaired has nothing to do with being uninformed or illogical in other areas of one’s life. You, on the other hand, may be able to do math, but you don’t know logic.

  43. A. Citizen  •  Feb 17, 2006 @7:50 pm

    So…it’s just fine for a man with a bully pulpit that allows him to speak to millions to say “don’t worry your pretty little head about learning something difficult” Something that will enable your to hold a better paying job or perhaps solve other problems in your life; mathematical thinking can be applied to many areas of life that is why physicists, like me, need to know how to do it. And it’s REALLY OK because the poster to this blog can’t “do” math either. Gosh…good thing the folks that invented transistors, computers, the internets, and all that useful stuff didn’t think the way folks here do. Yeah, teachers suck. What else is new?

    Well I’d like to say the ignorant attitudes on display here are new but they’re not. I came up against the same fear, disdain and stupidity waaaaaaay back in geometry class when I was on of only two guys who could solve the blackboard problems in class. My friend and I went on to college. The rest of the folks who made fun of us, like some here would like to do I’m sure, well….they got jobs at the local gas stations pumping gas.

    That was some time ago as you may imagine. So what are you folks gonna do when your grow up?

    Advise the younger generation to watch TV?

    Oh, yeah…Marky get’s it.

    The rest of you?

    Not so much.

  44. joanr16  •  Feb 17, 2006 @8:00 pm

    A. Citizen, as with apes and philosophy, you may have read all the comments but clearly you did not understand them.

  45. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @8:01 pm

    A. Citizen — I went on to college, too. And I excelled in many things. Just not in math. Since you misunderstood what I wrote, may I suggest remedial reading classes? You seem to have a problem with language skills.

  46. samiam  •  Feb 17, 2006 @8:14 pm

    Oh, for Pete’s Sake. Some people have a natural gift or knack for math, some for art, some for language. But to be a well rounded citizen, we have to have some understanding of all of it. I’ve seen classrooms where the teacher gets nowhere with most of the students (which sets them back for years) and some classrooms where students who had no interest suddenly become crazy for it. (I was a teacher’s aid once) It’s all in the teaching, I tell you. (Comment #25).

  47. PZ Myers  •  Feb 17, 2006 @8:57 pm

    You know, although I think Richard Cohen is a contemptible twit, I don’t think Gabriela is, necessarily (I don’t know much about her, of course, but being poor in math does not make someone a bad person, as you know). I don’t think everyone should be a math whiz, nor that we should punish people who don’t do derivatives. But I do think there are a whole bunch of skills that we are obligated to expose schoolkids to, because breadth is important. I’m at a liberal arts college, so of course I think that.

    This isn’t about punishing kids who are bad at algebra or hate Faulkner, but about teaching everyone these core pieces of the culture that include math and literature. It’s what education is all about. What Cohen was doing was going beyond just saying he had no inclination for algebra to belittling an important piece of our heritage — you know that even if you personally do not like or understand algebra, you are benefiting immensely from the work of all those other people who do. Cohen seems to think they are dispensable. While we shouldn’t condemn individuals who aren’t mathematical or artsy or verbal, philistines like Cohen who trash whole domains of human endeavor to make themselves feel better about their inadequacies deserve a good public thrashing on some obscure weblog, at least.

  48. Heidi  •  Feb 17, 2006 @9:05 pm

    Well, if you are driving 300 miles like from from Philadelphia to Boston, or Los Angeles to Las Vegas, it’s not going to take you 20 minutes!!Going 60 miles per hour, its going to take you 5 hours, 300 divided by 60 is 5, not 20! OTOH, if you do traverse 300 miles in 20 minutes, you are NOT driving a car - because you are going 900 miles an hour. A bit of numbers sense here, people! And then you add on the potty stops…………

  49. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @9:23 pm

    This isn’t about punishing kids who are bad at algebra or hate Faulkner, but about teaching everyone these core pieces of the culture that include math and literature. It’s what education is all about.

    I agree with that. But I also think that if this poor girl had already flunked algebra five times, then something is fundamentally wrong. Maybe it’s her, or maybe it’s the school, or maybe it’s both. As a practical matter, everyone needs basic math, and everyone needs to learn to apply some basic formulae, but for some students it’s just torture to be pushed into math classes they can’t grasp. It just teaches them to expect failure.

  50. Cyan  •  Feb 17, 2006 @9:32 pm

    Ummm… if you 300 miles in 20 minutes, you’re going 900 mph, not 60 mph.

  51. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @9:34 pm

    I’d like to add, re Cohen’s article — being a true dyscalculiaic means going through childhood with exasperated teachers and parents telling you that you absolutely have to learn this stuff they’re trying to teach you that isn’t sinking in, because you will have to know it when you grow up. But, as Cohen says, you learn to compensate. It’s like any disability; if you have vision problems, maybe you rely more on hearing. That’s how I heard what he was saying. I didn’t interpret it to mean that schools can just chuck math education altogether because it doesn’t matter.

    I think I could have benefited from a different sort of math education that would have matched my needs and abilities more than the math education I was offered, and I suspect that’s also true of a lot of the students in Los Angeles.

  52. Cyan  •  Feb 17, 2006 @9:34 pm

    Oops, I left a word out.

    I are an engineer.

  53. jerri  •  Feb 17, 2006 @9:56 pm

    I wonder how many LA hs grads understand when they hear bush’s approval rating is 40%?

  54. spiiderweb  •  Feb 17, 2006 @10:01 pm

    Heidi,

    I read 31 comments waiting for someone to point out the answer is 5 hours and not 20 minutes.

    Maha,

    Many of those posts were from you. Yep, you are math impaired. lol

  55. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @10:08 pm

    Many of those posts were from you. Yep, you are math impaired. lol

    So do you laugh at blind people, too?

  56. samiam  •  Feb 17, 2006 @10:15 pm

    I understan you, Maha. I think Patricia and Toxmom had something, too. I hated math, but I love science and nature. I often wished I could have had a math “mentor” to at least give me the option of furthering my math so I would have had that career option, you see? But I didn’t. Starting with third grade I was belittled and left behind. I caught up a little, though, with an outstanding algebra teacher and made A’s and B’s two years in a row. Geometry - forget it. The poor guy didn’t know how to reach me and I cried after every test.

    Marky, the attitude you may be getting from some of these parents who dismiss math often comes from a deep sense of betrayal and belief that someone didn’t care enough to reach them. Or from their own sense of inadequacy. I’m sure you have enough understanding of human nature to get this? Some of the best math teachers I’ve known will sit down with that parent and tell them they completely understand where they’re coming from, but then go on and make their points about why it’s important in a way the parent will understand. It’s called communicating and I’m sure you make that effort. I understand your frustration. And you are right that math does take work and we Americans are notoriously lazy about study. Foreign language is hard, too, and we’re bad with that.

    The deeper question is, how do we find and encourage the teachers we need who can teach math so that more kids understand it? Excellent teachers have a thorough love and knowledge of their subject and a passion to share it. They also have an understanding of human nature and how the human brain works. Now how often do you find this in people? Are we encouraging the ones who have what it takes? Or are they diverted to other more lucrative and glamourous occupations.

    The other half of the equation is the parental input. But that’s another topic, right?

  57. maha  •  Feb 17, 2006 @10:24 pm

    Frankly, marky’s attitude that “you could learn this if you just tried harder” is part of the problem. We all have different brains. Some brains don’t fit some subjects. I think I could have done a better job in math if I could have taken it more slowly, but I couldn’t keep up with the classes I was in. And if you can’t keep up, people just assume it’s because you aren’t trying, but that may not be the case. In my case, because I excelled in most of my other classes, my parents and my teachers assumed I was just being stubborn with math. That didn’t help, either.

  58. samiam  •  Feb 17, 2006 @10:44 pm

    I know. I had the same problem. That’s why I mentioned wishing I’d had a math “mentor.” Math is hard in a way that other subjects are not. If you’re smart in other areas, it’s like hitting your head against a brick wall and not understanding why. Everything else is understandable, so why not that? It’s baffling. Those like Marky, who find it easy, don’t understand this. The nearest I can come is to ask them how they do with learning foreign languages. If that’s hard for the, I tell them the feeling is similar. Greek to me!

  59. Carol Gee  •  Feb 17, 2006 @10:50 pm

    maha, I am amazed at how this subject got people’s juices flowing. You touched a nerve with many of us on both sides of the question. Who would believe math would engender such passion? I went back to school at age 50-and, luckily, Social Workers didn’t have to take college algebra.
    Our education system is broken, and our current president is adding insult to injury by touting “no child’s left behind.”

  60. spiiderweb  •  Feb 17, 2006 @11:02 pm

    Blindness, no. Its all relative. We all have handicaps.

    My handicap in school was Chemistry. I dabbled a little and realised I wasn’t wired for it. I was a whiz at math, but didn’t feel those who weren’t were any worse off.

    I will say, I would probably laugh at blind people if I were blind.

  61. samiam  •  Feb 17, 2006 @11:33 pm

    One more thing and I’m done for the night. In case this appears to be a “male/female” thing, let me assure you it isn’t! My two straight A college-age sons hate math, too. One was better at it than the other, but both are gifted in other ways - one in writing, the other in art. Their best friend barely survived math. One of my son helped him pass it. This best friend is an amazing songwriter. The whole town knows him as an extremely talented young man. Now, my point is: Could Mr. Marky write a song anyone would want to hear? Could Mr. Marky write a book anyone would want to read? Could he paint a painting someone would want to buy? (Sorry to be picking on you Marky. You’re simply representing all those math teachers who showed us no understanding) Could Mr. Marky originate and conduct a fascinating, well-run blog that others would frequent?
    Let’s keep some perspective here. “We all have different brains,” is right, Maha.

  62. Patricia Shillingburg  •  Feb 17, 2006 @11:51 pm

    In my last comment I talked about my son and my experiences as his mother. But, let me tell you I excelled in math until I reached calculus in college, and I never understood it. I blamed it on myself until years later a friend who is very bright said he never understood calculus either and blamed it on the instructor. While I was not understanding calculus and found physics boring (my intended major), I was loving History 101 (which I had always hated his High School because history then was just memorizing dates). So, I found a new love and moved on. I write history and program in HTML. What’s the problem?

  63. samiam  •  Feb 18, 2006 @12:13 am

    Hear, hear, Patricia! If it’s only Americans who hate math, as Marky stated, then since American students are human beings, it must be either the teachers or the culture. But what do we mean by culture? It’s an environment that does not question, or care, why a child is failing. I don’t mean to blame teachers here, either. There are so many outstanding, unspoken ones out there.

    But to say it’s because a child is not trying, is cruel. No child tries harder than the one who “doesn’t get it.” If they do give up, it’s because they are finally demoralized. I’m not talking about the ones who skip school, necessarily, although sometimes it’s discouragement that keeps them away. There’s a culture of fear and failure that takes over.
    Patricia, you were lucky that you did well in it in your earlier years. As in every “trauma” in early childhood, it is so often internalized that it’s hard to be objective until much later. If at all.

  64. atablarasa  •  Feb 18, 2006 @1:27 am

    I don’t know if I got everything in skimming the posts, but it seems to me that Cohen is wrong in what he said. The girl will need to know algebra. As was pointed out, 2+2=4 is algebra, if it’s framed properly.

    I think that’s the problem for a lot of people. We teach readin’, writin’ and ‘rithmatic all the same way. Lots of rote exercises. As Robert Pirsig pointed out in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, kids generally don’t learn to write worth a damn, either. Nor to read. Nor to think critically, for that matter.

    We don’t frame the education properly. We fill out reams of paper with equations that, for the most part, we won’t remember later because they were rote. We are never taught from the other direction - that we have a need to fill.

    My son refused to read. Wouldn’t do it for love nor money. In the third grade, he realized that his older brother and I were talking about the stories in Marvel comics and he wanted to take part in those conversations. He started looking at the comics and trying to figure out what those words were in the bubbles and balloons. Pretty soon he was reading small books and by a few years later he was working his way through Robert Jordan books.

    The point being that he had a reason to learn. Once he did, he went looking for help from his parents, brother, teachers and anyone else who would help him.

    I don’t think everyone is born to do math or to write or to read equally well. I do think with the proper teacher and the proper method, the vast majority of us can get farther than we believe we can.

    And by the way, my wife can’t do fractions to save her soul, but she *gets* statistics (because of a great teacher) and that’s most of her job. She also knows that if she ever needed to, she could go back now and learn what she didn’t get for fractions. Again, because of that teacher.

  65. atablarasa  •  Feb 18, 2006 @1:31 am

    Oh, and calculus? That’s a whole level harder than algebra. It’s like learning Russian. You not only have to learn the calculus, like Russian syntax, but you have to learn the basic alphabet in both instances. If you don’t get a teacher who will take the time to teach the baby steps, you’ll probably never learn the totality. And if you do have it in your head on the day of the finals, you won’t have it there by the end of the next semester break.

  66. dang  •  Feb 18, 2006 @7:00 am

    A couple years ago I tutored some community college students in a remedial algebra class. The college required it; I think the idea was that, to get a college degree, even an associate’s degree, one should be able to do early high-school math. A colleague tutored several other students in the same class.

    I learned some interesting things:

    - A lot of the trouble was that they didn’t quite get arithmetic — if they could do it at all, they had iffy spots. Fixing those earlier failures in education resolved many of the problems they thought they were having with algebra.

    - People are often initially afraid of or confused by the abstraction of an “x” or a “y” where there clearly should be a number. That doesn’t mean they can’t ever grasp or be comfortable with the use of symbols in mathematics. The purpose of using letters instead of numbers in the first place is to facilitate manipulations and generalizations that you can’t get to with simple arithmetic. Explain this and give examples. Work through problems with the student; then get the student to work through problems while you look on and help as needed; then get the student to work on problems while you’re not looking, and see how it goes. Lather, rinse, repeat. Algebra is a bit abstract and unfamiliar. You can’t just show it to people on the blackboard and expect them to understand it. They have to do it at least a few times to get the hang of it — but not so many times it gets boring.

    - People have trouble with story problems. Again, it’s that abstraction thing. They aren’t being taught _how_ to translate the familiar (”story”) problem into the language of mathematics. If I told you your credit card bank was adding an additional quarter percent to your APR and asked you to explain to me _in_Chamorro_ how many years in prison the bank CEO should serve and why, you probably couldn’t do it — but it wouldn’t be because you can’t do algebra. It would be because you can’t do the translation. The teacher in this remedial algebra class had found a sheet that someone had made up, that helped students _a_lot_ in changing word problems to math equations. I never had such a thing when I was learning math. It’s a great idea and should be expanded upon and taught to all students who struggle with algebra. Once you have the equations, they’re relatively easy to solve.

    - Patience, knowledge of math by the teacher or tutor, actually caring, enough empathy to understand what it is that the student doesn’t understand, and never acting like the student is stupid — these things overcame the wretched, math-hatred-inspiring “education” these students had had so far. I won’t say they ended up _loving_ math, but they were comfortable and more competent with it.

    - Some people probably are not built for much mathematical understanding, regardless of the teacher. I had a student who needed a calculator to add zero or multiply by one, no matter how many times he was taught how to do it. He seemed to have more ability in non-mathematical areas. But he was also one in thirty.

    - Even he was “making acceptable progress” by semester’s end, according to the teacher; another student (not mine) who had failed the course several times already and would not be allowed to repeat it if he failed once more, was responding very well to his tutor and ended up passing. I worked with him one class period and was surprised at how well he understood the material and how to use it. So I don’t think there’s a justification for dropping basic algebra as a requirement for graduation (at college or in high school), but I do think tutoring should be available for those who need it.

    - Far from the reverse — in my admittedly _very_ limited tutoring experience, women are _more_ apt than men at math. Every one of the women I tutored — these supposely boneheaded algebra failures — grasped the concepts fairly easily and was able to use them. The men struggled a little or a lot more.

    Finally — and this is my own opinion, not something I learned from tutoring: People do need to understand math _and_ Faulkner _and_ art _and_ grammar and all the rest. True, if you don’t have legs, you can’t dance. All right, if you don’t have a brain, you don’t have to learn algebra. Otherwise, quit whining (or not), get a better teacher, grit your teeth, and struggle through it (or discover it’s not so bad when it’s taught properly). You may _think_ you (or your offspring) have no use or need for algebra, or for scientific knowledge in the quantitative, mathematical, computational sense; you may _think_ you are quite logical and good at problem-solving and decision-making without this knowledge — but if do you think those things, you’re probably wrong, and it’s your math-impairment that prevents you from seeing that you’re wrong. It’s like the Girl Scout ad — when you understand math (and science, though that wasn’t part of the ad), you see the world through different eyes. You understand causes and effects. For instance, you can save money by adjusting how you drive, without taking a longer time to get where you’re going. If you understood math, including algebra, and some basic physics, you would see what to do without thinking about it too much; because you don’t, you don’t even know what questions to ask a mathematician or a physicist; you probably don’t even bring it up, because the idea doesn’t occur to you as a problem to solve with math and physics.

    On national and global levels, it is politicians who don’t understand math and science who are damaging the environment and the economy and generally making a mess of things. I’m not saying that the math- and science-challenged are destructive, or that politicans would be good people if they knew algebra and science. However, I do think our species will stand a better chance of surviving the next few centuries if we start educating children well, including a good grounding in math and science.

  67. maha  •  Feb 18, 2006 @7:20 am

    maha, I am amazed at how this subject got people’s juices flowing.

    There are conversations about this going on in other blogs. What I keep running into is the attitude that *if only* I understood how *important* math is, I would have learned it. What these people don’t grasp is that I *could not* learn it if my life depended on it. I have a big, fat learning disability that I can’t get around. Maybe if I’d been taught math some other way I would have turned out differently. Not knowing math IS a terrible handicap and I wish I did understand it. But insulting me and yelling at me about how important math is doesn’t change the fact that I CANNOT learn it any more than I can learn to fly by flapping my arms. Period. End of discussion.

  68. hettiemae  •  Feb 18, 2006 @8:10 am

    My high school algebra teacher passed me with a D out of the goodness of her hearat. When I was 50 and going to college for an associate degree in business, Algebra was a required class. I started with a refresher course, then an intermediate class. I stressed, prayed and cried through all of this. I finally took the Algebra class during the summer because the fall session was going to be a mandatory calculater use class. I handed in my test on the final day, walked out of the room, and collapsed in tears against the wall. No matter how much I tried to stop crying I could not. The teacher came out after about ten minutes to tell me I got a B. At that I slid to the floor and cried all the more. I am crying now as I write this.
    But I want to tell you, passing algebra is the what I am most proud of. Giving birth to four children in six years-lots of fun, no problem. Having and raising smart college educated children was a breeze. Working as a restaurant manager for eight years was a breeze. There is nothing in my life that compares to passing algebra. Algebra taught me about the balances in life. How for every action there is a reaction. Algebra showed me the reason for rules and the importance of following them. Algebra taught me to be wary of the danger of not following sound theorum. It is hard to explain, but algebra gives so much meaning to me liberal, peace loving nature.

  69. maha  •  Feb 18, 2006 @8:13 am

    How for every action there is a reaction.

    I got that from Zen training. :-)

  70. spiiderweb  •  Feb 18, 2006 @10:27 am

    If you want to keep this thread going. This is interesting.

    http://www.boingboing.net/2006/02/18/students_learn_more_.html

    Have a math/physics joke for everyone. If you don’t find it funny, then you are more art/literature oriented. Which is not bad, actually.

    E=mc(squared) +/- 2

  71. Donna  •  Feb 18, 2006 @11:29 am

    maha, you can learn algebra if you have the right teacher who knows how you learn. I’ve hated math since grade school because I couldn’t figure out how to do division. I had just moved to a new town and they were onto concepts that weren’t covered in my old school, instead of the teacher helping me to catch up, she just told me that I was stupid and lazy and moved on to the next kid. I’m serious, in front of the other students she said I was stupid and lazy. One night at home, I was sitting there crying trying to do my homework when my older sister sat with me to teach me. It was something simple like 2500 divided by 5 and I thought I had to do it all at once, so I’m counting out on my fingers; 5, 10, 15, 20 etc until I get to 2500…it takes awhile to do one problem that way and if you have 10 of them for your homework it’s gonna take all night. My sister was my teacher and I got A’s in that math class after that.

    I think the same is true for you and algebra, if you had the right teacher who knew that you learn best visually, they probably should have diagrammed problems out for you, or used spreadsheets which you find interesting.

    By the way, the example given earlier about the 300 mile trip with all the rest stops and the slow down through Atlanta etc etc is actually an excellent example of more complex algebra. It’s got lots of variables to take into consideration instead of the simple division of the first algebra example…that leads maha to believe it isn’t algebra when it is. Now you have to take into consideration that for 30 miles you will only be travelling on average 30mph for the Atlanta construcion, and then there are the 7 15 minute breaks, and the one hour lunch. So the calculation is
    {(300 - 30)÷60}+(30÷30)+(7*.25)+1=8.25 or 8hrs and 15mins

    I bet you could have figured all that out in your head, maha…that means you know how to do algebra.

  72. samiam  •  Feb 18, 2006 @11:41 am

    Some great comments this morning! I’m really learning a lot and plan to save some of these posts. I couldn’t agree more with atablarasa and I totally understand you, hettiemae. I wish I’d had you as a teacher, dang!

  73. maha  •  Feb 18, 2006 @11:45 am

    I think the same is true for you and algebra, if you had the right teacher who knew that you learn best visually, they probably should have diagrammed problems out for you, or used spreadsheets which you find interesting.

    I think I could have learned math, yes, but my aversion became so extreme that now it would take a miracle.

    I bet you could have figured all that out in your head, maha

    No, I can’t do even simple addition or subtraction in my head. It’s fingers or a calculator, or nothin’.

  74. Donna  •  Feb 18, 2006 @12:14 pm

    No, I can’t do even simple addition or subtraction in my head. It’s fingers or a calculator, or nothin’.

    Actually, I got the answer using a calculator, so that isn’t what I meant…would you have been able to figure out that you have to subtract the 30 miles through Atlanta from the original 300 in your head? Only 270 miles will be travelled at 60mph, the other 30 is at 30mph. I think you would. The only part that I know my math hating son would find confusing is the .25 = 15 minutes. A quarter of the number 1 is .25, but a quarter of an hour is 15 minutes. So it’s like translating the word “quarter” between two languages with that one.

    Using a calculator doesn’t mean you can’t do algebra, doing algebra means you know which numbers to add, divide, or do other operations on. For instance I don’t have the multiplication tables memorized, so I use a calculator or my fingers for that. But I do know which numbers have to be plugged in where.

  75. samiam  •  Feb 18, 2006 @12:22 pm

    Donna,
    I had exactly the kind of teacher you mentioned while learning long division in 3rd grade. The difference between you and people like maha and me is that we did not have a sister to help us. We carried that feeling of failure for the rest of our school career (with the one exception of my high school algebra teacher). It takes a lot to get over that. Imagine how you would have fared if you had not had your sister! To this day, I look at long strings of math or word problems and refuse to even read it. But I still have the feeling that, if someone had taken the time with me, I would be at least half-way proficient.
    During some of my first retail jobs, in fact, I’d even freeze up while giving out change sometimes. Particularly to grouchy people!

  76. Barry in Portland  •  Feb 18, 2006 @12:40 pm

    People who do not know algebra will be astonished by this:

    http://trunks.secondfoundation.org/files/psychic.swf

    People who DO will have themselves a little chuckle.

    Which side would you rather be on?

  77. tristero  •  Feb 18, 2006 @1:58 pm

    There is no way to understand music except through rote memorization and practice. I don’t care if you’re Hillary Hahn or Billy Joe Armstrong: you get nowhere without mindless, mind-numbing repetition of concepts the conscious mind grasps in a second.

    Ditto algebra. You’re not supposed to enjoy everything connected with learning, even if it would nice if you could. You’re also not supposed to be talented at everything, even if that too would nice.

    But you do have to understand certain subjects at a minimum level in order to graduate with a high school diploma. Algebra and geometry are two of them. That is not a lot to ask.

    Why is math important for a high school grad to know? That is a silly question. Why is it important for a high school grad to learn how to write declarative sentences? How many jobs that require a HS education and no more make demands on writing skills beyond a waiter’s scribble on a check? For that matter how many jobs in construction require knowing how to discuss in iron in Lord of the Flies?

    The reason to learn, and understand, math is not practical. It is transcendentally human. It is that simple.

    As for adult mathphobes, there is simply no excuse for an educated grownup not to understand basic mathematics. None. Go and get a book and some software and educate yourself. You cannot claim any pretense to culture without it.

    You think I’m talking from the point of view of the mathematically un-phobic? I, too, am deeply untalented at math and had the very same low math scores maha describes. So what? As a grownup, I learned it was vital that I understand it, not because it impacted my job - ancient Latin is far more relevant - but because it was culturally important.

    So I learned algebra, geometry, trig, and some stats. It was hard, still is. Big deal. I wish I had to time to learn more. Not because I enjoy it, but because it provides more understanding of my culture.

  78. maha  •  Feb 18, 2006 @2:00 pm

    Which side would you rather be on?

    Thanks for continuing to make me feel inadequate.

  79. samiam  •  Feb 18, 2006 @2:14 pm

    Your comment hurts because I know you’re right, tristero, but I don’t think you understand quite yet where some of us are coming from. “You’re not supposed to enjoy learning everything connected with learning.” I don’t think that’s what most of thought - and the fact that you would say this shows some patronage.

    Our point is that we tried so hard that we cried at night from frustration and embarrassment and still didn’t get anywhere.

    Okay, that was then. This is now. I find it very reassuring that people like you, and some others in the blog, say it’s still possible to learn. And that we still should learn it is something I will take seriously into consideration.

    In the meantime, how are we helping the kids of today who are failing?

  80. maha  •  Feb 18, 2006 @2:27 pm

    There is no way to understand music except through rote memorization and practice. I don’t care if you’re Hillary Hahn or Billy Joe Armstrong: you get nowhere without mindless, mind-numbing repetition of concepts the conscious mind grasps in a second.

    I was born with a good sense of relative pitch and have a four-octave vocal range. I have performed in choruses in Carnegie Hall and Lincoln Center, with the American Sympony Orchestra and the New York Philharmonic, among others. I’ve even been in the chorus of an opera company (you should have seen me in the role of “cigarette girl” from “Carmen”). This meant memorizing lyrics in foreign languages, which was drudgery, but I am not averse to drudgery.

    I sight-read music reasonably well, but I do it by judging intervals. It’s the relative pitch thing. In spite of the fact that I can stay on pitch easily, I can’t tell you what key I’m singing in. Nor could I teach someone to stay on pitch; either you hear it or you don’t. I can recognize the difference between, say, harmonic thirds and harmonic fifths when I hear them, but don’t ask me to explain, say, chromatic tuning. For that matter, I’ve known people who can explain chromatic tuning but who can’t stay on pitch.

    This is a right-brain thing with me; I know how to do it, but I can’t translate it into language to explain it.

    For that matter, there have been great folk and blues musicians who couldn’t read music at all. Are you saying they don’t “understand” music? What is it they don’t “understand”?

    My point is that we all have different brains and there are many ways of approaching the same subject in order to “understand” it.

    Regarding math, I think many of the comments here are indicative of why I got no help with my learning disbility. No matter how many times I say THIS IS A LEARNING DISABILITY, people continue to assume I could learn if I just tried. I did try. I tried a lot. It didn’t work. Now, everybody bleep off.

  81. tristero  •  Feb 18, 2006 @4:14 pm

    “Our point is that we tried so hard that we cried at night from frustration and embarrassment and still didn’t get anywhere.”

    You think I didn’t have a similar reaction? My first marriage was to the daughter of an experimental physicist. Both she, her brother, her father, and to a lesser extent her mom and sister, were highly talented in math. My math illiteracy was a source of deep, deep embarassment. My ex-father-in-law, one of the kindest and most sensitive people I’ve ever known, was openly shocked. I loved him dearly, respected him and was quite ashamed. I know from that kind of humiliation.

    Maha,

    ” there have been great folk and blues musicians who couldn’t read music at all. Are you saying they don’t “understand” music? What is it they don’t “understand”?

    My point is that we all have different brains and there are many ways of approaching the same subject in order to “understand” it.”

    Are you saying that Robert Johnson, Lightnin’ Hopkins, Bessie Smith, Howlin’ Wolf or for that matter, Jimi Hendrix didn’t have to practice? The fact is they did, constantly, obsessively. That’s just about all they did.

    We all have different brains, indeed, but you wanna be a musician, you practice. The end. Whether you’re a kid growing up in an indigneous tribe in the Kalahari, or you’re a grown-up in an amateur choir that cares about its audience, you have to practice.

    Let’s take Hendrix, who like the other folks mentioned, couldn’t read music. By all accounts, Hendrix was no natural musician.
    So how did Jimi Hendrix get to become incontestably one of the finest musicians of the past fifty years?

    The same way Murray Perahia got to Carnegie Hall. Hendrix practiced literally 24/7. As a teenager, he took a guitar with him to the movies. His entire adult life, he often slept with a guitar next to his bed. He took it into the john with him. I am certain that the story that is told by Stevie Ray Vaughn’s wife could also be told by Jimi’s numerous lovers: when he was asleep, his fingers curled up into guitar positions and he seemed to be practicing scales.

    Let’s take Robert Johnson. When he was in his teens, he was such a lousy performer, Charlie Patton and Son House used to laugh him out of the juke houses. He went away for about a year (the exact amount of time is a matter of dispute), shacked up with someone who kept him from starving, but mostly studied and practiced guitar full time. When he returned to the jukes, he was so great, no one could believe it. That’s what concentrated practice does for you.

    Don’t believe these stories? I’ll give you not one but several references. And I can provide dozens of more examples. Deep musical understanding comes through serious practice. Period.

    Some people like yourself have considerable inherent musical talent, and that’s always a good thing. And no doubt, you can get great joy and pleasure from using it without rigorous discipline. And that is very,very important which I realize.

    But there’s only one way to become Joni Mitchell, Laura Nyro, Kate Bush, PJ Harvey, Alicia de La Roccha, Renee Flemming, Maria Callas, etc etc etc etc. Do exactly what Robert and Jimi did. And what Ella, and Clara Schumann, and the Boulanger sisters, and Sister Rosetta Tharpe did.

    This doesn’t have to do with reading music, as if reading music matters to musicianship! This has to do with becoming an accomplished musician. I can explain to you in five seconds how to sing a difficult jazz scat line with or without looking at a score. It could take you weeks to perform it well even if you could read well.

    As for math, I don’t dispute you have a learning disability. I share that with you, maha, I really do. But we arrive at different conclusions. Your opinion is that it is all but impossible to overcome this defect. My view is that while that certainly is true in my case, that is no reason to stop trying. I firmly believe that algebra, etc. is as important to cultural literacy as Kafka, Billie Holiday, Hildegard von Bingen, and Munch.

    In fact, without understanding math and its importance, many important parts of artistic culture - not all, but many - are permanently closed to you. Not that that is the reason to study math. As with art, there are no valid “arguments from utility” to crack an algebra text. You don’t need to know who Memphis Minnie was any more than you need to know how to read Toni Morrison, discuss the causes of the War of 1812, retell Inuit creation tales, or know how to solve quadratics. None of this stuff will help most people earn a living or raise families.

    The only valid reason to learn math is tautological. You study math because it is self-evidently vital to your growth as a human being to study math. And if it’s hard, if it’s difficult, if it’s impossible, you still have to try.

    And I’m certain that anyone as obviously smart as you are can do far more math than you claim you can. And I’ll bet $100 to the political candidate of your choice that you can learn how to accurately calculate percentages within 6 weeks with focused, daily practice of a half hour.

  82. maha  •  Feb 18, 2006 @4:34 pm

    We all have different brains, indeed, but you wanna be a musician, you practice. The end.

    You cotinue to assume that I could have learned math if I had tried harder. But my inability to learn was not from lack of trying. I could not do it the way I was taught. I might have learned it if I’d been taught in a different way.

    I have a quirky brain. I don’t believe I process information the way other people do. This is not an advantage, and it’s not a matter of being “smart.” It’s just odd.

    The only valid reason to learn math is tautological. You study math because it is self-evidently vital to your growth as a human being to study math. And if it’s hard, if it’s difficult, if it’s impossible, you still have to try.

    I could say the same thing about koan study.

    And I’m certain that anyone as obviously smart as you are can do far more math than you claim you can.

    Live with my head for half an hour, and you’ll say otherwise. Everybody assumes that I could learn the stuff. I’m telling you I have a black hole where math smarts are supposed to be.

    And I’ll bet $100 to the political candidate of your choice that you can learn how to accurately calculate percentages within 6 weeks with focused, daily practice of a half hour.

    Or, I could just keep doing them in Excel. But since I’m not doing department budgets any more it’s not something I ever have to do.

  83. Tracy Boland  •  Feb 18, 2006 @4:40 pm

    I am a pre-service high-school math teacher (I’m going to school to learn to teach math) and I am finding the many comment threads spawned by Mr. Cohen’s op-ed piece very insightful.

    My personal belief is that when a student does not understand a concept (be it math or English or whatever), it is incumbent upon the teacher to find a different way to express the concept so that the student can make the connection. Also, ideally, every student would have a personal teacher, when needed. Gabriela, for example, should have had a dedicated algebra tutor after her third time through the class.

    Math wears many faces, logic and problem-solving being two of them. Earlier in this thread, Maha mentioned that in a previous career she was a project manager, which certainly uses complex problem-solving math skills. The project managers I have known have had to juggle multiple unknowns in the form of timelines, personnel resources, and budgets; those who bring a project in on-time and on-budget are successful math practitioners (among other things).

    Maha, I am not trying to say that you don’t struggle with math, or that you don’t have a learning disability. However, you may be quite good at some areas of math that you aren’t giving yourself credit for.

  84. Swami  •  Feb 18, 2006 @4:46 pm

    Well, I personally wouldn’t accept the description in a problem area as a learning disability. It might be semantics but, I’d prefer to address any shortcomings in learning in specific areas as not being my cup of tea,over my head,challenged or any number of less stigmatizing and more accurate terms. Algebra is not my forte?

    Anyway, you didn’t come up short in the language skills.

    Here’s a little trick question for those who have gained command in the realm of Mathematics.

    If an American warplane drops 2— 500 lbs bombs on a wedding party of 35 innocent Iraqi’s, 20 of which are kurds, and 15 are sunnis, and all but 2 are killed…How many in the wedding party were terrorists?

  85. maha  •  Feb 18, 2006 @4:47 pm

    The project managers I have known have had to juggle multiple unknowns in the form of timelines, personnel resources, and budgets; those who bring a project in on-time and on-budget are successful math practitioners (among other things).

    That’s right, and I did these things with charts and spreadsheets. I can work out some pretty complicated math problems if I can put them into a spreadsheet. Then it’s pure logic; if this value changes, then that value changes. That’s algebra, I realize. But in a spreadsheet, I can work it out because I can see all the steps and how they interrelate at once, and I also don’t get bogged down with the calculations, since the software does them. But I cannot fathom how to do the same thing with a piece of paper and a pencil. It’s like working blind.

  86. tristero  •  Feb 18, 2006 @5:05 pm

    Maha,

    ” ‘The only valid reason to learn math is tautological. You study math because it is self-evidently vital to your growth as a human being to study math. And if it’s hard, if it’s difficult, if it’s impossible, you still have to try.’

    “I could say the same thing about koan study.”

    There’s less difference than one might think.

  87. maha  •  Feb 18, 2006 @5:13 pm

    There’s less difference than one might think.

    Oh, I realize that. What I know about physics I learned from Dogen Zenji. My point is that there are multiple ways to approach the same thing. Just because I bombed in math class doesn’t mean I am utterly incapable of appreciating the aesthetic elegance of existence (or “understanding” music, for that matter). I just get there my own way.

  88. Donna  •  Feb 18, 2006 @5:19 pm

    This is a right-brain thing with me; I know how to do it, but I can’t translate it into language to explain it.

    This is actually what I would say the problem is with alot of teachers. They know the subject very well but can not explain it to their students. This is my husband trying to help the kids with their homework. I’m a very good teacher to them because I know how they think and explain things in ways they understand. My husband usually just gets off track telling stories or something. When I told him not to do that, he said that is what he thought I was doing! I do tell stories, but they are related to what the homework is about, as examples. Sheesh!

    I think the reason why alot of us won’t accept your learning disability is because you are such a logical reasoning person, and that is what it takes to understand math. I think we are only testing to see if what you really mean is that you have a phobia and not an actual learning disability. You have made it clear that you are not afraid to try, but that you simply have a mental block when it comes to math. I believe you because the same thing happens to me when I tried to learn javascript after finding html a breeze. I assumed they would be the same but I read the same page over and over and couldn’t get it no matter how many times I read it. I tried a different book with the same results.

    A hint for those who don’t want to be astonished by Barry’s website and don’t especially understand algebra…it’s multiples of 9. Look at the symbols besides 9, 18, 27, 36, etc. They are all the same, so no matter what number you pick the answer you will get will be some multiple of 9 and of course they all have the same symbol so the symbol will be correct for the number you are thinking of.

  89. maha  •  Feb 18, 2006 @5:26 pm

    you have a phobia and not an actual learning disability.

    It’s grown into the same thing. Through years of horrible educational experience I was conditioned to be unable to work math. (Fortunately I taught myself to read, or else I probably would be illiterate today.) I supposed it might be possible to be un-conditioned, but at this point of my life I don’t know how long I’ve got before senility kicks in (Alzheimer’s runs in the family; I assume it will get me eventually). I propose to use what’s left of my time and flagging mental resources to do what I know how to do.

  90. Tracy Boland  •  Feb 18, 2006 @5:47 pm

    The clay tablet, the stylus, the abacus, the pencil and paper, the calculator, the spreadsheet…these are all very good tools for number manipulation. Number manipulation is a good math skill to have, and it’s actually down near the bottom of the hierarchy of math understanding.

    An expression of a deeper (higher) level of math understanding is the ability to analyze and problem-solve. Facility in number manipulation (i.e., arithmetic) is often used as a gate-keeper to education of more in-depth concepts, even though being able to sum numbers quickly is not truly a pre-requisite to analysis.

    It’s entirely possible to be good at math without being able to do arithmetic in one’s head.

  91. dang  •  Feb 19, 2006 @3:32 am

    “That’s right, and I did these things with charts and spreadsheets. I can work out some pretty complicated math problems if I can put them into a spreadsheet. Then it’s pure logic; if this value changes, then that value changes. That’s algebra, I realize. But in a spreadsheet, I can work it out because I can see all the steps and how they interrelate at once, and I also don’t get bogged down with the calculations, since the software does them. But I cannot fathom how to do the same thing with a piece of paper and a pencil. It’s like working blind.”

    Maha, there’s nothing wrong with doing it that way. Nothing at all. You’re doing what works for you, and you’re getting the right answers. That IS mathematical ability and understanding. Being able to do arithmetic with pencil and paper, or in your head, is not the same thing and, while handy, is nowhere near as important (as Tracy pointed out above).

    Being able to do it all using algebraic symbols and manipulations, instead of a spreadsheet, would be necessary if you were, say, a scientist or a mathematician and had to communicate and prove things symbolically to others in the same field. It would be necessary if you were a teacher of the hard sciences or of math. For most other purposes, including the ones I alluded to in the last two paragraphs of my previous comment, reliance on a calculator, spreadsheet, or other hardware or software aid, is not only perfectly acceptable; it’s how scientists and engineers and even some mathematicians do much of their work.

    Back to your dancing analogy. If you don’t have legs, you can’t dance; but if you found yourself an excellent pair of artificial legs, learned how to use them, and endured the pain and other attendant difficulties, and went ahead and danced anyway when you needed to or wanted to — that’s beyond adequate. It’s profoundly admirable, if not outright heroic.

  92. Ghost of Joe Liebling's Dog  •  Feb 19, 2006 @2:33 pm

    I keep coming back to the student’s attendance. I know, the sixth time she tries, she may well be unable to muster much gumption … but still.

    I’ve taught algebra to students who came into class with minimal backgrounds in math. The ones who attended class regularly did at least passably well. The ones whose attendance was spotty by and large did not do so well.

    In classes I taught in other subjects I’ve also had students who simply didn’t show up much. They didn’t demonstrate competence in the things that were being studied the days they were absent, and they had trouble with subsequent material that depended on at least some familiarity with the stuff they’d missed.

    If that happened two or three times, it was usually not disastrous; much more often than that, though, and things got pretty iffy.

    Now, the young woman in the article missed two-thirds of the class meetings.

    I don’t know how to teach anyone, in any subject, who only shows up one day out of three, while the rest of the class is progressing. Maybe someone else does; I just don’t see how, and maybe that’s my own failing.

    Kind regards,
    Dog, etc.

  93. Ghost of Joe Liebling's Dog  •  Feb 19, 2006 @2:37 pm

    PS - That is not to say that there are people who have so hard a time with math that it’s essentially impossible.

    I’m just saying that before blaming the teachers, the administration, the curriculum, and so on, I would like to know if the student was in class, most of the time, the first time through.

    And I intended no insult to anyone writing here, which I’m concerned I may have thoughtlessly given. If I did, I certainly apologize.

    With kind regards,
    Dog, etc.
    searching for home

  94. Ghost of Joe Liebling's Dog  •  Feb 19, 2006 @2:40 pm

    Oh Lord, please, please, let me type this correctly:

    “That is not to say that there AREN’T people who have so hard a time with math that it’s essentially impossible.”

    I’m sure that there are.

    I’m going to sit in the corner now.

    – Dog, etc.

  95. maha  •  Feb 19, 2006 @5:06 pm

    Now, the young woman in the article missed two-thirds of the class meetings.

    It isn’t just her, though. 44 percent of Los Angeles high school students flunk algebra the first time they take it, and a larger percentage of students who take it a second time flunk it the second time. Plus, apparently hundreds of students drop out without a diploma primarily because of the algebra requirement.

    While in an ideal world it would be wonderful if all kids graduated high school with a year of algebra, if the requirement means that a substantial number of kids passed everything else and are without a diploma ONLY because of the algebra requirement, I’d like to see the school make a greater effort to get special help for these kids or drop the bleeping requirement. Most states don’t require a year of algebra for a high school diploma, I understand. It’s ridiculous to just keep sending the failing kids back to the same class for a fourth, fifth, or sixth time. There’s a saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

    How about this: Instead of making the young woman take algebra 7 times until she quits, the school board needs first to take a step back and look at their entire math program, K-12; and second until they can do a better job of teaching the basics they should’t have an algebra requirement for a diploma.

    Now, if you really believe no one is a complete human being until they can work algebra that’s fine, but I’m saying that a lot of us poor slobs do manage to get high school and even college diplomas in our disabled and math-impaired state, and we do go on to have reasonably successful lives in fields that don’t require much math. So while not ideal, it isn’t necessarily true that not passing high school algebra is a life sentence to the McDonald’s counter. (Although, truth be told, I passed high school algebra even though I couldn’t actually do algebra, but that’s another story.)

    However, the real solution is not to get angry at us algebra cripples but to figure out how to do a better job teaching math.

  96. elly  •  Feb 19, 2006 @5:54 pm
  97. maha  •  Feb 19, 2006 @8:11 pm

    elly — Wow, it’s an official disease with list of symptoms! I have only about half of those symptoms, though. I don’t think I have a problem with time and direction, for example, and I can read clock faces. So maybe I just have a mild case.

  98. Ghost of Joe Liebling's Dog  •  Feb 19, 2006 @10:38 pm

    I hope I didn’t sound angry; I certainly apologize if I did - it was not meant.

    I’m still curious about what it’s like in those LA high-school algebra classes. But I’d look back to elementary school math too. The classes I taught were in a two-year college, and some of the students had trouble with things like subtraction — the more so when a problem resulted in a negative number (e.g., a problem like “12 - 21 = ?”). It seemed to me that they had been badly served not only by their high schools but by their elementary schools.

    If a person is uncomfortable with problems on the level of the example above, many books might just as well never be opened. Are students getting the teaching they need in the early grades?

    It may be altogether unrelated, but with median home prices in California well above half a million dollars and starting K-12 public school teacher salaries under 40 thousand, I wonder that anyone goes into teaching at all.

    With kind regards,
    Dog, etc.
    searching for home

  99. Erin  •  Feb 21, 2006 @12:32 pm

    (Wow, 99 comments. I did not read them all, apologies for redundancy.)

    Hee. Thank goodness math phobia is not hereditary; I’m very good at math. I took calculus in high school, which… got me through college physics, actually. (Such a coup; I struggled in science classes because I was taught science through rote memorization instead of in any logical way, so I took physics for dummies in college and didn’t learn any physics but already knew all the math to do the shortcuts on the exams.) I’ve had to use advanced math in my day job, but I’m apparently a special case. I’m not sure that calculus is useful at all in the Real World if you’re not an engineer or physicist, but I can see some practical applications for the basic ideas taught in algebra classes. Math is all very logical, but it’s taught in strange, illogical ways, like memorizing times tables will teach students any skills beyond how to memorize.

    Seems to me that public education needs an overhaul, the whole system, but math and science classes in particular. Teaching by rote only gets students as far as the exams; after that, they don’t retain much. A friend of mine is in a master’s program for elementary ed. now and there’s a lot of debate over pedagogy and methodology for teaching young kids — it’s an interesting debate, and some school districts are making positive changes, but the inner-city schools with fewer resources are forced to rely on old pedagogies, which means… kids drop out. It seems to me that the algebra requirement is not unreasonable, but then, I took algebra in 8th grade [/gloat] …kids should be graduating with at least basic math and writing skills, though.

  100. maha  •  Feb 21, 2006 @1:09 pm

    Thank goodness math phobia is not hereditary

    Thank goodness you didn’t need help with your math homework.

  101. Kandi  •  Feb 20, 2007 @10:03 pm

    Thanks, Richard. I’m not alone. I just wrote this earlier as a blog before I came to this site. I get it now…

    I have a really serious problem. I’m not even being humorous at all. My future depends on it. I keep thinking maybe I’m just an idiot, but I know I’m not. I’m making A’s and B’s in everything… everything but Math. The thing is… *takes a deep breath* It’s basic math, and for the 2nd semester I am failing it. I know why. I know precisely why. Every time I start to do it, I pre-program myself to believe that I truely hate it, to hate it with everything within me. And I do. Truely. Passionately. The word problems make me so angry. I will literally say outloud, “What a stupid freaking question!” I can’t do it because I can’t get over how angry I am over its uselessness. I hate it so much and I’m not sure it’s because I really can’t do it… like maybe my brain is not able to process anything other than beautiful, free-flowing words, or is it because I just simply hate and despise it? It’s my 2nd semester!!! I’m acing everything. I understand everything. I’m so philosophical and can make an A-plus (see, i don’t even wanna use the plus sign) on a 20 page essay (just an example. I haven’t actually had one this semester) but simple little decimals and fractions make me so angry that I don’t want to do them. What is wrong with me? I know I could, but I hate them so bad. At least I think I can. I keep being proved wrong. What am I blaming math for? Why can’t I just do it? Why do I just wanna get it over with, even if I’m making a failing grade? Seriously, I get really really angry as soon as I see the first idiotically “simple” Math problem. I pity myself if I ever have algebra. hahaha… I think fractions are really stupid. Wait until I’m multiplying letters. Will it make me hate words too? Why can’t everyone just accept that I hate math and want nothing to do with it and see that I’m so smart in everything else I do? I can sing, I can dance, I can draw, paint, etc…, I can play two instruments, write a 480 page novel, but basic math beats me. Maybe I’m letting math win. Maybe I could beat math if I look at it that way. I need some construtive critism. I know that if I could get over this anger, this gut-wrentching, sadistic anger, towards numbers that I could do it. I’m not trying to be cute or funny. I SERIOUSLY, HONESTLY have pent-up anger towards Math or numbers… I’m not sure. I’m also not sure what can be done about it. It’s just so stupid and pointless. I don’t want to be a construction worker. I don’t want to count change for my McDonalds customers, so what’s the point of math for me. Sadly, if I don’t pass this easy, anger-invoking crap called Math *cringes* then I will have to choose between the two. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of anyone with an anger-oriented learning diability. Has anyone ever heard of a phobia of Math? I’m not being funny. I’m being completely serious. Dead serious. There’s something wrong with my brain.

  102. Joni  •  Jun 8, 2007 @2:30 pm

    I know I am adding to this at a very late date. So be it. I am 53 years young and enrolled in the local college. I have severe Math phobia. But the saving grace is that the college has 3 or 4 courses of Algebra which are progressively leading up to College Algebra.
    I don’t see why the L.A. school district doesn’t break down the curriculum for Algebra in this way. Also, I am completely dependent on the tutors and they are my saving grace. The main issue with Algebra tutors is that they should be tested prior to being hired and that the school should have a high ratio of tutors to students.

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