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	<title>Comments on: Patriotism v.  Francis Fukuyama</title>
	<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/</link>
	<description>Exposing the ugly truths about the Bush Administration.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 20:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; Responsibility</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-248182</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-248182</guid>
					<description>[...] Awhile back I wrote a post called &amp;#8220;Patriotism v. Nationalism,&amp;#8221; which was followed up by &amp;#8220;Patriotism v. Paranoia,&amp;#8221; &amp;#8220;Patriotism v. Francis Fukuyama,&amp;#8221; &amp;#8220;Patriotism v. Hate Speech,&amp;#8221; and probably some other posts. Anyway, in the first post I repeated some quotes about patriotism and nationalism I found in Bartlett&amp;#8217;s. Here are some of them, again:  The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war. &amp;#8212; Sidney J. Harris Patriotism is a lively sense of collective responsibility. Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on its own dunghill and calling for larger spurs and brighter beaks. I fear that nationalism is one of England’s many spurious gifts to the world. &amp;#8212; Richard Aldington [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] Awhile back I wrote a post called &#8220;Patriotism v. Nationalism,&#8221; which was followed up by &#8220;Patriotism v. Paranoia,&#8221; &#8220;Patriotism v. Francis Fukuyama,&#8221; &#8220;Patriotism v. Hate Speech,&#8221; and probably some other posts. Anyway, in the first post I repeated some quotes about patriotism and nationalism I found in Bartlett&#8217;s. Here are some of them, again:  The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war. &#8212; Sidney J. Harris Patriotism is a lively sense of collective responsibility. Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on its own dunghill and calling for larger spurs and brighter beaks. I fear that nationalism is one of England’s many spurious gifts to the world. &#8212; Richard Aldington [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; Rogue Nation</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-76015</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-76015</guid>
					<description>[...] Francis Fukuyama seems to have learned a few things since he wrote that &amp;#8220;end of history&amp;#8221; claptrap back in the 1980s. In his Guardian op-ed he admits that the use of force in Iraq has been counterproductive and that &amp;#8220;preventive war&amp;#8221; is not a sustainable foreign policy. It&amp;#8217;s actually worth reading. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] Francis Fukuyama seems to have learned a few things since he wrote that &#8220;end of history&#8221; claptrap back in the 1980s. In his Guardian op-ed he admits that the use of force in Iraq has been counterproductive and that &#8220;preventive war&#8221; is not a sustainable foreign policy. It&#8217;s actually worth reading. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: David Harley</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3751</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3751</guid>
					<description>The &quot;Hegelian&quot; element in Fukuyama's thought, which he coyly describes as &quot;Marxist&quot; in the NYT article, derives not from Hegel but from the Russian/French intellectual, Alexandre Kojève (1902-1968), who influenced neoconservative thought through his correspondence with Leo Strauss and through the enthusiasm of Allan Bloom for his work.  This was a very selective influence, however, and distorted much of his thought, as can be seen from a glance at some of the French thinkers whom he influenced, such as Sartre, Merleau-Ponty, Lacan, Bataille, Althusser, Queneau, Aron, and Breton.

As for the resemblance between salvation and democracy, I would suggest that a more millenarian analogy is appropriate.  It is not individual salvation that is the aim, but something more like the thousand-year Rule of the Saints.

Millenarianism was a creation of 16th-century Calvinists, when they realized that there was no pure Church lasting a thousand years in the Christian past.  The Rule of the Saints that would precede the Second Coming must therefore lie in the future.  In 17th-century England, this expectation drove work in the applied sciences, social reform, and the Re-Admission of the Jews.

With the collapse of English Calvinism in the late 17th century, God's general providence was transformed into a faith in Nature and Progress.  Overt millenarianism was less common, but it did continue in the work of such influential thinkers as David Hartley.  More generally, it was transmuted into a belief in Progress inexorably creating a better world.  This can be seen in the work of such heirs of Enlightement universalism as Hegel and Marx.  Grimmer versions can be seen in the projects of the Leninists and the Nazis.

With the rise of dispensationalist theology in 20th-century America and its increasing politicization, the Rule of the Saints can be fitted back together with secular notions about spreading democracy, although not all fundamentalist Protestants would do so.  Providence and Progress have a close family relationship.

Thus, it is possible to see &quot;the Clash of Civilizations&quot; and the &quot;End of History&quot; as secularized eschatology, albeit of somewhat different kinds.  The enemy will rage, there will be wars, and then the righteous will reign for a thousand years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The &#8220;Hegelian&#8221; element in Fukuyama&#8217;s thought, which he coyly describes as &#8220;Marxist&#8221; in the NYT article, derives not from Hegel but from the Russian/French intellectual, Alexandre Kojève (1902-1968), who influenced neoconservative thought through his correspondence with Leo Strauss and through the enthusiasm of Allan Bloom for his work.  This was a very selective influence, however, and distorted much of his thought, as can be seen from a glance at some of the French thinkers whom he influenced, such as Sartre, Merleau-Ponty, Lacan, Bataille, Althusser, Queneau, Aron, and Breton.</p>
	<p>As for the resemblance between salvation and democracy, I would suggest that a more millenarian analogy is appropriate.  It is not individual salvation that is the aim, but something more like the thousand-year Rule of the Saints.</p>
	<p>Millenarianism was a creation of 16th-century Calvinists, when they realized that there was no pure Church lasting a thousand years in the Christian past.  The Rule of the Saints that would precede the Second Coming must therefore lie in the future.  In 17th-century England, this expectation drove work in the applied sciences, social reform, and the Re-Admission of the Jews.</p>
	<p>With the collapse of English Calvinism in the late 17th century, God&#8217;s general providence was transformed into a faith in Nature and Progress.  Overt millenarianism was less common, but it did continue in the work of such influential thinkers as David Hartley.  More generally, it was transmuted into a belief in Progress inexorably creating a better world.  This can be seen in the work of such heirs of Enlightement universalism as Hegel and Marx.  Grimmer versions can be seen in the projects of the Leninists and the Nazis.</p>
	<p>With the rise of dispensationalist theology in 20th-century America and its increasing politicization, the Rule of the Saints can be fitted back together with secular notions about spreading democracy, although not all fundamentalist Protestants would do so.  Providence and Progress have a close family relationship.</p>
	<p>Thus, it is possible to see &#8220;the Clash of Civilizations&#8221; and the &#8220;End of History&#8221; as secularized eschatology, albeit of somewhat different kinds.  The enemy will rage, there will be wars, and then the righteous will reign for a thousand years.
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; Patriotism v. Hate Speech</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3749</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3749</guid>
					<description>[...] (This is more or less a continuation of the Patriotism v. Nationalism series. See also &amp;#8220;Patriotism v. Paranoia&amp;#8221; and &amp;#8220;Patriotism v. Francis Fukuyama.&amp;#8221;) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] (This is more or less a continuation of the Patriotism v. Nationalism series. See also &#8220;Patriotism v. Paranoia&#8221; and &#8220;Patriotism v. Francis Fukuyama.&#8221;) [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Erin</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3744</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3744</guid>
					<description>See, here's why we need to improve American education; a lot of the rightie rhetoric displayed in the post shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of Political Theory 101. &quot;Democracy&quot; becomes just a hollow term if you reduce it to being &quot;good.&quot; As in, &quot;America is good, America is a democracy, therefore democracy is good,&quot; with no understanding of what a democracy is or how it functions. I think that's the only way that Bush, et al, can get away with dismantling democracy; it's more of an idea than a functioning system in the rightie world. 

Not to mention that there's no reason to believe that &quot;democracy&quot; and &quot;good&quot; would be the default if you removed oppressive leadership. Quite the contrary, actually, according to Locke or Hobbes. And look at Iraq; Bush must have assumed that getting rid of Saddam would bring on the Democracy Fairy, to sprinkle goodness and flowers and bunnies over the country. Funny how that didn't work out. 

I guess the precedent is that the fall of the USSR created &quot;democracy&quot; in Russia, but anyone who knows anything about modern Russia knows it's not all sunshine and kittens. Or even much of a democracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>See, here&#8217;s why we need to improve American education; a lot of the rightie rhetoric displayed in the post shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of Political Theory 101. &#8220;Democracy&#8221; becomes just a hollow term if you reduce it to being &#8220;good.&#8221; As in, &#8220;America is good, America is a democracy, therefore democracy is good,&#8221; with no understanding of what a democracy is or how it functions. I think that&#8217;s the only way that Bush, et al, can get away with dismantling democracy; it&#8217;s more of an idea than a functioning system in the rightie world. </p>
	<p>Not to mention that there&#8217;s no reason to believe that &#8220;democracy&#8221; and &#8220;good&#8221; would be the default if you removed oppressive leadership. Quite the contrary, actually, according to Locke or Hobbes. And look at Iraq; Bush must have assumed that getting rid of Saddam would bring on the Democracy Fairy, to sprinkle goodness and flowers and bunnies over the country. Funny how that didn&#8217;t work out. </p>
	<p>I guess the precedent is that the fall of the USSR created &#8220;democracy&#8221; in Russia, but anyone who knows anything about modern Russia knows it&#8217;s not all sunshine and kittens. Or even much of a democracy.
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		<title>by: Bozwellian</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3731</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3731</guid>
					<description>Being a mere ordinary not fully steeped nor engulfed by way higher learnings.., am admitting that actually, got a great deal of insight and an almost &quot;eureeka&quot; moment from the NYT presentation by Fukuyama and a comprehension of just where they/neocons , were coming from . Have found there positionings quite confounding simple common sense and irrational and obviously, way to hypocritical and been astounded forever it seems, by their inability to comprehend elsewise .  They obviously truly believe and have long closed minds  and can &quot;give&quot; credit for perhaps being of &quot;good intentions&quot;, still find their premisings aghastibles and horrifying to see such implemented with such as the present results which has tossed the entire world into what may be everlasting disorder and greater divisiveness than at any other time in WORLD history. Perhaps due to modern conveniences  and the tech that allows to BE informed of whatevers around the globe and DISCONNECTIONS and being overwhelmed by it AL so find the human tendencies to &quot;hunker down&quot; and hope/pray for all to pass and grasp nostalgicals for comfort and then fallible and fallible attempts to just hold off &quot;modernismaticals&quot; encroaching. Happens here in the USA, and happens elsewhere and sure do WISH there was a way to get a balance but am NOT all that too hopeful and see our present adminstrationers exampling just how run-amok the effort is even IF &quot;well-intentioned&quot;. 
Sorry, but what he seems to have confirmed too, is that they DID do all this out of &quot;best intentions&quot;  but they were rampant in delusional thinkings and non comprehension of reality/realities.
Mere ORDINARIES were attempting to screech out STOP/NO /NO WAY and to PUH-LEEZE reconnoiter before the instigation in Iraq (and many too in regards to Afghanistan which in truth had other factors and few bother to investigate/acknowledge for perhaps IF one allows that to be semi &quot;justified&quot; , could perhaps get Iraq acknowledged as the mistake that it truly was/is and corrective activity induced...but that too is another...)
It helps at least to have a better comprehension from where these neocons evolved from...hope others  take time to comprehend them  if have not and suspect too many have not for if so, why  NONE seem able  to formulate a good counter response that could change the course ...but, am but an ordinary mind and got a day to day life to try for.......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Being a mere ordinary not fully steeped nor engulfed by way higher learnings.., am admitting that actually, got a great deal of insight and an almost &#8220;eureeka&#8221; moment from the NYT presentation by Fukuyama and a comprehension of just where they/neocons , were coming from . Have found there positionings quite confounding simple common sense and irrational and obviously, way to hypocritical and been astounded forever it seems, by their inability to comprehend elsewise .  They obviously truly believe and have long closed minds  and can &#8220;give&#8221; credit for perhaps being of &#8220;good intentions&#8221;, still find their premisings aghastibles and horrifying to see such implemented with such as the present results which has tossed the entire world into what may be everlasting disorder and greater divisiveness than at any other time in WORLD history. Perhaps due to modern conveniences  and the tech that allows to BE informed of whatevers around the globe and DISCONNECTIONS and being overwhelmed by it AL so find the human tendencies to &#8220;hunker down&#8221; and hope/pray for all to pass and grasp nostalgicals for comfort and then fallible and fallible attempts to just hold off &#8220;modernismaticals&#8221; encroaching. Happens here in the USA, and happens elsewhere and sure do WISH there was a way to get a balance but am NOT all that too hopeful and see our present adminstrationers exampling just how run-amok the effort is even IF &#8220;well-intentioned&#8221;.<br />
Sorry, but what he seems to have confirmed too, is that they DID do all this out of &#8220;best intentions&#8221;  but they were rampant in delusional thinkings and non comprehension of reality/realities.<br />
Mere ORDINARIES were attempting to screech out STOP/NO /NO WAY and to PUH-LEEZE reconnoiter before the instigation in Iraq (and many too in regards to Afghanistan which in truth had other factors and few bother to investigate/acknowledge for perhaps IF one allows that to be semi &#8220;justified&#8221; , could perhaps get Iraq acknowledged as the mistake that it truly was/is and corrective activity induced&#8230;but that too is another&#8230;)<br />
It helps at least to have a better comprehension from where these neocons evolved from&#8230;hope others  take time to comprehend them  if have not and suspect too many have not for if so, why  NONE seem able  to formulate a good counter response that could change the course &#8230;but, am but an ordinary mind and got a day to day life to try for&#8230;&#8230;.
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		<title>by: modus potus</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3727</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3727</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;What is “humanitarian interventionism” supposed to mean.?&lt;/i&gt;

Something like “we’re invading your country and bleeping you over generally for your own good.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Like driving heathen into the sea to baptize them before thy drown.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p><i>What is “humanitarian interventionism” supposed to mean.?</i></p>
	<p>Something like “we’re invading your country and bleeping you over generally for your own good.”</p></blockquote>
	<p>Like driving heathen into the sea to baptize them before thy drown.
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		<title>by: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3726</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3726</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;What is “humanitarian interventionism” supposed to mean.? &lt;/i&gt;

Something like &quot;we're invading your country and bleeping you over generally for your own good.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>What is “humanitarian interventionism” supposed to mean.? </i></p>
	<p>Something like &#8220;we&#8217;re invading your country and bleeping you over generally for your own good.&#8221;
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		<title>by: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3725</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3725</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;You need to go back and read “The End of History…”, because you don’t understand its main thesis.&lt;/i&gt;

That was my first assumption -- this guy is saying something really subtle that's going way over my head. Then I kept reading and realized, with growing horror, that he wasn't. As far as reading it again ... no way. Gave me a headache the first time. 

Granted, I never read the book, just an essay by Fukuyama explaining his basic thesis. But I read what I read, and I stand by what I wrote above.

As far as an &quot;end of history in a Hegalian sense -- my understanding is that the &quot;end of history&quot; theme attributed to Hegel is, in fact, a misinterpretation of Hegel's ideas. I am not expert on Hegel and could be mistaken. Still, I am uncomfortable with the notion that history is hurtling toward some fixed and predetermined goal. Perhaps it is, but as soon as individuals existing in a tiny sliver of the All (including Fukuyama and Hegel) begin to assume they know what the goal is, they've contaminated the process.

That's in a Zen sense, btw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>You need to go back and read “The End of History…”, because you don’t understand its main thesis.</i></p>
	<p>That was my first assumption &#8212; this guy is saying something really subtle that&#8217;s going way over my head. Then I kept reading and realized, with growing horror, that he wasn&#8217;t. As far as reading it again &#8230; no way. Gave me a headache the first time. </p>
	<p>Granted, I never read the book, just an essay by Fukuyama explaining his basic thesis. But I read what I read, and I stand by what I wrote above.</p>
	<p>As far as an &#8220;end of history in a Hegalian sense &#8212; my understanding is that the &#8220;end of history&#8221; theme attributed to Hegel is, in fact, a misinterpretation of Hegel&#8217;s ideas. I am not expert on Hegel and could be mistaken. Still, I am uncomfortable with the notion that history is hurtling toward some fixed and predetermined goal. Perhaps it is, but as soon as individuals existing in a tiny sliver of the All (including Fukuyama and Hegel) begin to assume they know what the goal is, they&#8217;ve contaminated the process.</p>
	<p>That&#8217;s in a Zen sense, btw.
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		<title>by: Swami</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3715</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 03:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/02/20/patriotism-v-francis-fukuyama/#comment-3715</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;The problem for Mr. Fukuyama and others counseling a return to Realism is that the neocons aren’t the driving force behind the policy of humanitarian interventionism.&lt;/i&gt;

OK, I give up...What is &quot;humanitarian interventionism&quot; supposed to mean.? Is it a fancy way to say shock and awe? Maybe it refers to our humane intervention in Fallujah with the use of white phosphorus?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The problem for Mr. Fukuyama and others counseling a return to Realism is that the neocons aren’t the driving force behind the policy of humanitarian interventionism.</i></p>
	<p>OK, I give up&#8230;What is &#8220;humanitarian interventionism&#8221; supposed to mean.? Is it a fancy way to say shock and awe? Maybe it refers to our humane intervention in Fallujah with the use of white phosphorus?
</p>
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