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	<title>Comments on: At Least We Beat Latvia</title>
	<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/</link>
	<description>Exposing the ugly truths about the Bush Administration.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 06:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; Mind the Gap</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-280534</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-280534</guid>
					<description>[...] See also: &amp;#8220;Haley Barbour, Baby Killer,&amp;#8221; &amp;#8220;At Least We Beat Latvia.&amp;#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] See also: &#8220;Haley Barbour, Baby Killer,&#8221; &#8220;At Least We Beat Latvia.&#8221; [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: modus potus</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-10067</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 May 2006 11:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-10067</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Also, if you factor in fetal deaths after 28 weeks’ gestation, which would eliminate different ways of counting which babies are stillborn and which died after birth, the U.S. looks a little better but is still below average.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
That's arguably a better measure of maternal care than infant mortality in any case.  The problem is that such stats aren't universally kept, and are even less uniform than infant mortality stats -- there are other thresholds than 28 weeks, for example.
As for why U.S. stats are so poor, one factor is teenage pregnancy. Teens who become pregnant before their bodies have finished maturing have a higher complication rate, and higher fetal mortality. Given that the U.S. has a higher teenage pregnancy rate than most of the developed world, this is something else to be considered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<blockquote><p>Also, if you factor in fetal deaths after 28 weeks’ gestation, which would eliminate different ways of counting which babies are stillborn and which died after birth, the U.S. looks a little better but is still below average.</p></blockquote>
	<p>That&#8217;s arguably a better measure of maternal care than infant mortality in any case.  The problem is that such stats aren&#8217;t universally kept, and are even less uniform than infant mortality stats &#8212; there are other thresholds than 28 weeks, for example.<br />
As for why U.S. stats are so poor, one factor is teenage pregnancy. Teens who become pregnant before their bodies have finished maturing have a higher complication rate, and higher fetal mortality. Given that the U.S. has a higher teenage pregnancy rate than most of the developed world, this is something else to be considered.
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		<title>by: terry</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9959</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 22:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9959</guid>
					<description>Thanks for the input Maha. I have come to rely on blogs like yours for news that has any political overtones. If you start doing sports and weather I will cancel my subscription to the local newspaper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks for the input Maha. I have come to rely on blogs like yours for news that has any political overtones. If you start doing sports and weather I will cancel my subscription to the local newspaper.
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		<title>by: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9957</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 22:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9957</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;With respect to newborn mortality, thanks for explaining the discrepancy in counting methods and why it is statiscally unimportant.&lt;/i&gt;

I'm looking into this some more, because the righties are still in denial and I think we're possibly all short on facts. However, I found one table that shows that if you compare the infant mortality rate for only white U.S. infants, the U.S. rates are closer to that of other industrialized nations. But African Americans have a considerably higher infant mortality rate (even though, I assume, the rate is calculated the same way as for whites), which raises the average.

Also, if you factor in fetal deaths after 28 weeks' gestation, which would eliminate different ways of counting which babies are stillborn and which died after birth, the U.S. looks a little better but is still below average. 

&lt;i&gt;Final question I have is whether the rates of drug and alcohol use by mothers in this country can be factored into the mix. It seems obvious to me that poor prenatal care is the largest factor, but you know someone on the right will suggest that it is the drug and alcohol use by poor (and not so poor) mothers in this country that explains the low rankings.&lt;/i&gt;

Surely there is drug and alcohol abuse elsewhere. We don't have a lock on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>With respect to newborn mortality, thanks for explaining the discrepancy in counting methods and why it is statiscally unimportant.</i></p>
	<p>I&#8217;m looking into this some more, because the righties are still in denial and I think we&#8217;re possibly all short on facts. However, I found one table that shows that if you compare the infant mortality rate for only white U.S. infants, the U.S. rates are closer to that of other industrialized nations. But African Americans have a considerably higher infant mortality rate (even though, I assume, the rate is calculated the same way as for whites), which raises the average.</p>
	<p>Also, if you factor in fetal deaths after 28 weeks&#8217; gestation, which would eliminate different ways of counting which babies are stillborn and which died after birth, the U.S. looks a little better but is still below average. </p>
	<p><i>Final question I have is whether the rates of drug and alcohol use by mothers in this country can be factored into the mix. It seems obvious to me that poor prenatal care is the largest factor, but you know someone on the right will suggest that it is the drug and alcohol use by poor (and not so poor) mothers in this country that explains the low rankings.</i></p>
	<p>Surely there is drug and alcohol abuse elsewhere. We don&#8217;t have a lock on it.
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		<title>by: terry</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9931</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 20:27:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9931</guid>
					<description>On your larger point, this country has always had to confront the bizarre consortium of the political and religious right. What would you expect when you combine Puritans with Capitalists? It also explains why pornagraphy is so popular and prevalant. With respect to newborn mortality, thanks for explaining the discrepancy in counting methods and why it is statiscally unimportant. Final question I have is whether the rates of drug and alcohol use by mothers in this country can be factored into the mix. It seems obvious to me that poor prenatal care is the largest factor, but you know someone on the right will suggest that it is the drug and alcohol use by poor (and not so poor) mothers in this country that explains the low rankings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On your larger point, this country has always had to confront the bizarre consortium of the political and religious right. What would you expect when you combine Puritans with Capitalists? It also explains why pornagraphy is so popular and prevalant. With respect to newborn mortality, thanks for explaining the discrepancy in counting methods and why it is statiscally unimportant. Final question I have is whether the rates of drug and alcohol use by mothers in this country can be factored into the mix. It seems obvious to me that poor prenatal care is the largest factor, but you know someone on the right will suggest that it is the drug and alcohol use by poor (and not so poor) mothers in this country that explains the low rankings.
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		<title>by: Swami</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9923</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 19:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9923</guid>
					<description>Oh...there's a typo that needs correction..That 's marital not martial.. I normally don't have the need to project perfection but that typo changes significantly the meaning of the idea being conveyed.

The good thing about typo's is that they can serve in a subtle way to allow others to feel good about themselves without ever being aware that their intellect has been stroked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh&#8230;there&#8217;s a typo that needs correction..That &#8217;s marital not martial.. I normally don&#8217;t have the need to project perfection but that typo changes significantly the meaning of the idea being conveyed.</p>
	<p>The good thing about typo&#8217;s is that they can serve in a subtle way to allow others to feel good about themselves without ever being aware that their intellect has been stroked.
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		<title>by: Swami</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9921</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 19:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9921</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt; they’re no different from the religious Right &lt;/i&gt;

I disagree. Although there are many similarities which appear on the surface in a comparison between the two;a closer examination for differences reveals that the religious right possesses a deeper, more penetratingly gnarled sexuality. I can't offer a link to support my assertion because I generally don't make record of sites that espouse or support crippling ideas.
 But if anybody is interested in taking a closer look at the demon of religious sexuality they might begin by googling: Onanism, Christian support groups for martial relationships devastated by Onanism, Sexual purity in Christ, Westboro Baptist Church, Exorcizing sexual demons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> they’re no different from the religious Right </i></p>
	<p>I disagree. Although there are many similarities which appear on the surface in a comparison between the two;a closer examination for differences reveals that the religious right possesses a deeper, more penetratingly gnarled sexuality. I can&#8217;t offer a link to support my assertion because I generally don&#8217;t make record of sites that espouse or support crippling ideas.<br />
 But if anybody is interested in taking a closer look at the demon of religious sexuality they might begin by googling: Onanism, Christian support groups for martial relationships devastated by Onanism, Sexual purity in Christ, Westboro Baptist Church, Exorcizing sexual demons.
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		<title>by: joanr16</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9898</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 17:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9898</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;[T]here are a lot of dead babies Japan simply doesn't count.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I love the way some commenters make statements like the above without providing facts, links, sources, contexts, or any other form of elucidation.

Taken as a whole, maha's post lets out the political Right's dirtiest little secret: they're no different from the religious Right, in that they want to control who has sex and how we have it.  The subsequent Rightie comments indicate they've reached this insane pass because they have no interest in reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;[T]here are a lot of dead babies Japan simply doesn&#8217;t count.&#8221;</i></p>
	<p>I love the way some commenters make statements like the above without providing facts, links, sources, contexts, or any other form of elucidation.</p>
	<p>Taken as a whole, maha&#8217;s post lets out the political Right&#8217;s dirtiest little secret: they&#8217;re no different from the religious Right, in that they want to control who has sex and how we have it.  The subsequent Rightie comments indicate they&#8217;ve reached this insane pass because they have no interest in reality.
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		<title>by: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9828</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 13:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9828</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;In any case, the fraction of stillbirths where the ambiguity comes into play isn’t large enough to throw the ranking off by much — &lt;/i&gt;

Exactly my point. There are some differences in the way different nations determine their infant mortality rates, but these differences have a negligible impact on the numbers. At most they'll move a nation from 5.0 to 5.1 deaths per 1,000 infants. And, as you say, the health experts take these differences into account. They are not, as Brian suggests, comparing apples to oranges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>In any case, the fraction of stillbirths where the ambiguity comes into play isn’t large enough to throw the ranking off by much — </i></p>
	<p>Exactly my point. There are some differences in the way different nations determine their infant mortality rates, but these differences have a negligible impact on the numbers. At most they&#8217;ll move a nation from 5.0 to 5.1 deaths per 1,000 infants. And, as you say, the health experts take these differences into account. They are not, as Brian suggests, comparing apples to oranges.
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		<title>by: modus potus</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9827</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 12:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/05/09/at-least-we-beat-latvia/#comment-9827</guid>
					<description>The difference Brian is talking about hinges on the definition of stillbirth vs. live birth. Some countries define a live birth as a newborn showing any heart or muscle activity, while others require that the newborn at least attempt to breathe. Japan and some European nations use the latter definition, while the U.S. and many other nations use the former (which is the one WHO recommends). WHO attempts to compensate for these and other biases, but as a UN organization you know what the righties think of their efforts.

The idea is that the U.S. infant mortality rate includes births where the infant has a heartbeat but never breathes, while some other countries would count such a birth as a stillbirth.

In any case, the fraction of stillbirths where the ambiguity comes into play isn't large enough to throw the ranking off by much -- Brian is surely blowing smoke with his claim that the Japanese, with an official rate of half the U.S., in reality have a higher rate. Although stillbirth is common (around 8.7/1000 in the U.S.), the number of ambiguous cases is going to be considerably smaller than his claim would require -- it appears that the vast majority of stillbirths are indeed &quot;still.&quot; You aren't going to make up the  3.24/1000 difference in infant mortality between the U.S. and Japan with what's left.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The difference Brian is talking about hinges on the definition of stillbirth vs. live birth. Some countries define a live birth as a newborn showing any heart or muscle activity, while others require that the newborn at least attempt to breathe. Japan and some European nations use the latter definition, while the U.S. and many other nations use the former (which is the one WHO recommends). WHO attempts to compensate for these and other biases, but as a UN organization you know what the righties think of their efforts.</p>
	<p>The idea is that the U.S. infant mortality rate includes births where the infant has a heartbeat but never breathes, while some other countries would count such a birth as a stillbirth.</p>
	<p>In any case, the fraction of stillbirths where the ambiguity comes into play isn&#8217;t large enough to throw the ranking off by much &#8212; Brian is surely blowing smoke with his claim that the Japanese, with an official rate of half the U.S., in reality have a higher rate. Although stillbirth is common (around 8.7/1000 in the U.S.), the number of ambiguous cases is going to be considerably smaller than his claim would require &#8212; it appears that the vast majority of stillbirths are indeed &#8220;still.&#8221; You aren&#8217;t going to make up the  3.24/1000 difference in infant mortality between the U.S. and Japan with what&#8217;s left.
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