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	<title>Comments on: People With One Watch, Part II</title>
	<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/</link>
	<description>Exposing the ugly truths about the Bush Administration.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; The Wisdom of Doubt, Part II</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-243756</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 13:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-243756</guid>
					<description>[...] Weirdly, people who have &amp;#8220;moral clarity&amp;#8221; that embryonic stem cell research is bad often are compelled to lie &amp;#8212; to us, to each other, to themselves &amp;#8212; about the facts of the embryonic stem cell issue. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] Weirdly, people who have &#8220;moral clarity&#8221; that embryonic stem cell research is bad often are compelled to lie &#8212; to us, to each other, to themselves &#8212; about the facts of the embryonic stem cell issue. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; Shameless</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-39189</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-39189</guid>
					<description>[...] The Anchoress claims Fox is fighting for &amp;#8220;bad science.&amp;#8221; I&amp;#8217;ve already explained here and here that it&amp;#8217;s righties like the Anchoress who lie through their teeth about the science. Sister Toldjah, no lightweight in the idiot department, compares the ad to race baiting. (Go ahead and pause to ponder that one, if you need to.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] The Anchoress claims Fox is fighting for &#8220;bad science.&#8221; I&#8217;ve already explained here and here that it&#8217;s righties like the Anchoress who lie through their teeth about the science. Sister Toldjah, no lightweight in the idiot department, compares the ad to race baiting. (Go ahead and pause to ponder that one, if you need to.) [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; Being Good</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-38931</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-38931</guid>
					<description>[...] Last July I wrote a three-part series explaining why the purists are wrong on the embryonic stem cell question; here is Part I, Part II, and Part III. Parts II and III in particular focus on the disinformation about stem cell research being spread by the purists to defend their &amp;#8220;logical&amp;#8221; opinion. I wrote, The fact is, opponents of stem cell research routinely lie — to themselves, to each other, to anyone who will listen — in order to defend their belief that embryonic stem cell research is immoral. This suggests to me that the real reasons people object to stem cell research have less to do with moral principle than with some deeply submerged but potent fear. And this takes us back to elective ignorance. Something about flushing all those blastocysts makes the Fetus People uncomfortable in a way that condemning Henry Strongin to death does not. The arguments they make against stem cell research, which are mostly a pile of lies and distortions, are not the reasons they are opposed to stem cell research. They are the rationalizations created to justify their opposition. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] Last July I wrote a three-part series explaining why the purists are wrong on the embryonic stem cell question; here is Part I, Part II, and Part III. Parts II and III in particular focus on the disinformation about stem cell research being spread by the purists to defend their &#8220;logical&#8221; opinion. I wrote, The fact is, opponents of stem cell research routinely lie — to themselves, to each other, to anyone who will listen — in order to defend their belief that embryonic stem cell research is immoral. This suggests to me that the real reasons people object to stem cell research have less to do with moral principle than with some deeply submerged but potent fear. And this takes us back to elective ignorance. Something about flushing all those blastocysts makes the Fetus People uncomfortable in a way that condemning Henry Strongin to death does not. The arguments they make against stem cell research, which are mostly a pile of lies and distortions, are not the reasons they are opposed to stem cell research. They are the rationalizations created to justify their opposition. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Blue Gal</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21341</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21341</guid>
					<description>Speaking as someone who has been through infertility treatment, and I blog about it and this issue today, btw, I hope that if I had leftover embryos I would have the strength to donate them to help others.  Just as I would hope to have the strength to donate a kidney if a loved one needed it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Speaking as someone who has been through infertility treatment, and I blog about it and this issue today, btw, I hope that if I had leftover embryos I would have the strength to donate them to help others.  Just as I would hope to have the strength to donate a kidney if a loved one needed it.
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		<title>by: zeus</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21122</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Jul 2006 06:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21122</guid>
					<description>I just had to add a response to Bob Geiger's great comments.  I have always wanted to stand up in Congress and/or be face-to-face with these religious right hypocrites and ask:  How many children have you adopted or are you willing to adopt?  How many children have you adopted that have been born with HIV, drug-addicted or with severe physical deformities.  Did you promise the victims' of rape that you would adopt and provide for any resulting offspring?  How many unwanted and uncared for children did you adopt Senator Santorum, Senator Brownback, etc?  That's what I thought!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I just had to add a response to Bob Geiger&#8217;s great comments.  I have always wanted to stand up in Congress and/or be face-to-face with these religious right hypocrites and ask:  How many children have you adopted or are you willing to adopt?  How many children have you adopted that have been born with HIV, drug-addicted or with severe physical deformities.  Did you promise the victims&#8217; of rape that you would adopt and provide for any resulting offspring?  How many unwanted and uncared for children did you adopt Senator Santorum, Senator Brownback, etc?  That&#8217;s what I thought!
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		<title>by: zeus</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21117</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Jul 2006 06:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21117</guid>
					<description>Maha -

Thank you for clearing up that blastocyst stuff.  Governor Romney (R-Mass) made me dizzy with this info last year while attempting to explain his flip-flop on this subject. He was for it before it he was against it, ie. for it pre-election and against it post-election.  ***Also people, take heed, this guy is running for president in '08 and not only is he one of the biggest flip-floppers on stem-cell research, he also changed his mind on emergency contraception.  He's a wolf in sheep's clothing and shame on us because we fell for it - but that's a story for another day.

Speaking of flip-floppers, it would be interesting to know how many would save their loved ones if they knew that the 'cure' was a result of this research.  Probably the same percentage of anti-choice people who rationalize that it's OK for them to get an abortion when they find themselves in the unfortunate position of an unwanted/dangerous/result-of-rape or incest pregnancy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Maha -</p>
	<p>Thank you for clearing up that blastocyst stuff.  Governor Romney (R-Mass) made me dizzy with this info last year while attempting to explain his flip-flop on this subject. He was for it before it he was against it, ie. for it pre-election and against it post-election.  ***Also people, take heed, this guy is running for president in &#8216;08 and not only is he one of the biggest flip-floppers on stem-cell research, he also changed his mind on emergency contraception.  He&#8217;s a wolf in sheep&#8217;s clothing and shame on us because we fell for it - but that&#8217;s a story for another day.</p>
	<p>Speaking of flip-floppers, it would be interesting to know how many would save their loved ones if they knew that the &#8216;cure&#8217; was a result of this research.  Probably the same percentage of anti-choice people who rationalize that it&#8217;s OK for them to get an abortion when they find themselves in the unfortunate position of an unwanted/dangerous/result-of-rape or incest pregnancy.
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		<title>by: Dan S.</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21110</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Jul 2006 04:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21110</guid>
					<description>&quot;And if destroying a blastocyst is immoral, why is it more immoral to use it for potentially life-saving medical research than it is to send it straight to an incinerator? This makes no sense to me.&quot;

The only thing I can come up with (imagining a blastocyst to be equivalent to a human life in any meaningful way): the fear that &lt;i&gt;benefiting&lt;/i&gt; from blastocyst destruction by getting to carry out - and eventually use -  potentially life-saving research just trips over a ethical line re: the value and sanctity of human life, and starts sliding down that infamous slippery slope to death camps and who knows what, in a way that simply trashing them &lt;i&gt;without benefit&lt;/i&gt; doesn't.  Or even without considering such consequences, that simply benefiting from a wrong is wrong.  In this view, such waste is morally superior for &lt;i&gt;being&lt;/i&gt; a waste, a refusal to benefit.  The closest analogy I can imagine is with the idea that killing soldiers or perhaps death row inmates is (generally) acceptable, but using them for scientific experimentation and organ harvesting isn't, even if it would save lives.  Or perhaps the controversy over using medical research or (iirc) medical  illustrations deriving from Nazi concentration camps.  (But temperance sounds sorta on the right track too, in that I don't think most folks woulda had this frame if they hadn't been producing and consuming all this culture of death stuff for some time as part of the anti-abortion mindset.)

But of course, this is ridiculously incoherent, unless one starts to view ivf as some sort of vast and vital War on Blastocysts (we're freezing them over there so we don't have to freeze them over here?).  The logical thing for them to do (given that initial conviction), as endlessly pointed out and as you show, is to oppose ivf as equally benefitting from the destruction of invisible babies.  But mostly they can't seem to do this, presumably because they feel ivf to be a good thing (or understand that the public does).  And I'm sure they're not comfortable with the idea of people suffering, even as a result of what they see as a moral good (or realize the public isn't).

Hence the myths (in the technical sense of resolving contradictions) of snowflake babies as a viable solution, of embryonic stem cells not &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; being all that useful, of adult stem cells being just as good.  Or, to use your much clearer and more focused phrase, elective ignorance.

Or, to use a much vaguer and less useful term, people are really  frickin' stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;And if destroying a blastocyst is immoral, why is it more immoral to use it for potentially life-saving medical research than it is to send it straight to an incinerator? This makes no sense to me.&#8221;</p>
	<p>The only thing I can come up with (imagining a blastocyst to be equivalent to a human life in any meaningful way): the fear that <i>benefiting</i> from blastocyst destruction by getting to carry out - and eventually use -  potentially life-saving research just trips over a ethical line re: the value and sanctity of human life, and starts sliding down that infamous slippery slope to death camps and who knows what, in a way that simply trashing them <i>without benefit</i> doesn&#8217;t.  Or even without considering such consequences, that simply benefiting from a wrong is wrong.  In this view, such waste is morally superior for <i>being</i> a waste, a refusal to benefit.  The closest analogy I can imagine is with the idea that killing soldiers or perhaps death row inmates is (generally) acceptable, but using them for scientific experimentation and organ harvesting isn&#8217;t, even if it would save lives.  Or perhaps the controversy over using medical research or (iirc) medical  illustrations deriving from Nazi concentration camps.  (But temperance sounds sorta on the right track too, in that I don&#8217;t think most folks woulda had this frame if they hadn&#8217;t been producing and consuming all this culture of death stuff for some time as part of the anti-abortion mindset.)</p>
	<p>But of course, this is ridiculously incoherent, unless one starts to view ivf as some sort of vast and vital War on Blastocysts (we&#8217;re freezing them over there so we don&#8217;t have to freeze them over here?).  The logical thing for them to do (given that initial conviction), as endlessly pointed out and as you show, is to oppose ivf as equally benefitting from the destruction of invisible babies.  But mostly they can&#8217;t seem to do this, presumably because they feel ivf to be a good thing (or understand that the public does).  And I&#8217;m sure they&#8217;re not comfortable with the idea of people suffering, even as a result of what they see as a moral good (or realize the public isn&#8217;t).</p>
	<p>Hence the myths (in the technical sense of resolving contradictions) of snowflake babies as a viable solution, of embryonic stem cells not <i>really</i> being all that useful, of adult stem cells being just as good.  Or, to use your much clearer and more focused phrase, elective ignorance.</p>
	<p>Or, to use a much vaguer and less useful term, people are really  frickin&#8217; stupid.
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		<title>by: sammy1</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21076</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jul 2006 21:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21076</guid>
					<description>The phamaceuticals want their cake and are also desirous to eat it. Govt supported Medicare B... non negotiable drug prices, vaccines... insured by the govt. If they want stem cell research, do their own and reap the financial rewards, that's capitalism. If they want the govt to invest in their research then as with any investment in private enterprise, the govt should expect a fair return, otherwise it becomes a form of socialized medicine (not that there's anything wrong with that)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The phamaceuticals want their cake and are also desirous to eat it. Govt supported Medicare B&#8230; non negotiable drug prices, vaccines&#8230; insured by the govt. If they want stem cell research, do their own and reap the financial rewards, that&#8217;s capitalism. If they want the govt to invest in their research then as with any investment in private enterprise, the govt should expect a fair return, otherwise it becomes a form of socialized medicine (not that there&#8217;s anything wrong with that)
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; People With One Watch, Part III</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21075</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jul 2006 21:08:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21075</guid>
					<description>[...] The fact is, opponents of stem cell research routinely lie &amp;#8212; to themselves, to each other, to anyone who will listen &amp;#8212; in order to defend their belief that embryonic stem cell research is immoral. This suggests to me that the real reasons people object to stem cell research have less to do with moral principle than with some deeply submerged but potent fear. And this takes us back to elective ignorance. Something about flushing all those blastocysts makes the Fetus People uncomfortable in a way that condemning Henry Strongin to death does not. The arguments they make against stem cell research, which are mostly a pile of lies and distortions, are not the reasons they are opposed to stem cell research. They are the rationalizations created to justify their opposition. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] The fact is, opponents of stem cell research routinely lie &#8212; to themselves, to each other, to anyone who will listen &#8212; in order to defend their belief that embryonic stem cell research is immoral. This suggests to me that the real reasons people object to stem cell research have less to do with moral principle than with some deeply submerged but potent fear. And this takes us back to elective ignorance. Something about flushing all those blastocysts makes the Fetus People uncomfortable in a way that condemning Henry Strongin to death does not. The arguments they make against stem cell research, which are mostly a pile of lies and distortions, are not the reasons they are opposed to stem cell research. They are the rationalizations created to justify their opposition. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: QrazyQat</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21064</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jul 2006 18:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/07/21/people-with-one-watch-part-ii/#comment-21064</guid>
					<description>I think government should defintiely be in the research funding business, but it shouldn't be so eager to give away the results.  This is true not only in medical research, but things like hybrid corn and such, among many other types of research.  How about instead of giving away the results -- as I understand it we now give it away but get a minor deal on government buying of the resulting products -- we get, say, a 5% royalty on each.  Talk about your tax cutting -- the royalties would bring in billions, many billions.  We don't we do this?  Why do we instead give it away as corporate welfare?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think government should defintiely be in the research funding business, but it shouldn&#8217;t be so eager to give away the results.  This is true not only in medical research, but things like hybrid corn and such, among many other types of research.  How about instead of giving away the results &#8212; as I understand it we now give it away but get a minor deal on government buying of the resulting products &#8212; we get, say, a 5% royalty on each.  Talk about your tax cutting &#8212; the royalties would bring in billions, many billions.  We don&#8217;t we do this?  Why do we instead give it away as corporate welfare?
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