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	<title>Comments on: Hate Speech and Its Consequences</title>
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	<description>Making the World Safe for Liberalism</description>
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		<title>By: Doug Hughes</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/10/07/hate-speech-and-its-consequences-2/comment-page-1/#comment-37104</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 22:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1081#comment-37104</guid>
		<description>I have a question for c u n d gulag. Did you write your doctoral thesis in Comparative Religions, Theology, or Automotive Engineering? In any case, an enlightened bit of reasoning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a question for c u n d gulag. Did you write your doctoral thesis in Comparative Religions, Theology, or Automotive Engineering? In any case, an enlightened bit of reasoning.</p>
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		<title>By: felicity smith</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/10/07/hate-speech-and-its-consequences-2/comment-page-1/#comment-37093</link>
		<dc:creator>felicity smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1081#comment-37093</guid>
		<description>Falwell and his ilk promote religious wars, disguised as God&#039;s word, to give life to their fund raising strategies - or to sell books.  Putting them in that light, they become nothing more than flim-flam artists,  certainly not Christian theologians or evangelicals.  At the same time their &quot;religious&quot; faith at its ugliest is a rottenness of certitude, which makes them extremely obnoxious flim-flam artists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Falwell and his ilk promote religious wars, disguised as God&#8217;s word, to give life to their fund raising strategies &#8211; or to sell books.  Putting them in that light, they become nothing more than flim-flam artists,  certainly not Christian theologians or evangelicals.  At the same time their &#8220;religious&#8221; faith at its ugliest is a rottenness of certitude, which makes them extremely obnoxious flim-flam artists.</p>
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		<title>By: c u n d gulag</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/10/07/hate-speech-and-its-consequences-2/comment-page-1/#comment-37086</link>
		<dc:creator>c u n d gulag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1081#comment-37086</guid>
		<description>What is a Jew? 
What is a Christian?
What is a Muslim?
I&#039;m about to lay out the dumbest analogy in the history of humanity.  Here goes:
If you&#039;re a believer in any one, you are a believer in all.  All believe in the same God.  The SAME God...
A Jew is someone who follows the Old Testament.  Abraham, etc...  &quot;Abraham is described as a patriarch blessed by God (Genesis 17:5). (From Wikipedia).
A Christian is someone who believes in the teaching of Christ, a Prophet who was born a Jew.  Those teachings accept, not except, the Old Testament and Abraham.  (Christ had no army, so &quot;An Army of/in Christ&quot; is not something that Jesus would be the head of).
Muhammad was another Prophet of the Abrahamic tribe.  His path to his God, Allah, also accepted the two prior Abrahamic religions and their teachings.
Oversimplification?  Yes!  But, what is the argument?  
Ford developed the mass production of car&#039;s = Abraham.
General Motors and Chevy punched the old Model-T up = Jesus.
Buick came along and changed a lot of the way things were done in Detroit = Muhammad.
Let&#039;s say we&#039;re all trying to get to God = Graceland.  
All are nice cars. 
All will get you where you want to go - Graceland.
All have different &quot;owner manual&#039;s.&quot;

Is this what we&#039;re arguing and killing each other?  Over these manuals?
&quot;You don&#039;t change the oil that way on the way to Graceland!  You do it THIS WAY!!!  Or else I&#039;ll kill you, you son of a jackal!!!!!!!!&quot;

ME?  I drive a polytheistic car, a Saturn (he was the God of fertility and agriculture).  I kind of like reaping and sowing.... 

Maha, maybe next time we can tackle the Easter Religions - Honda, Toyota and Suburu :-)

Looking for God is OK folk&#039;s, just don&#039;t make fun of other people&#039;s owners manuals.

&#039;Nuff said...

Have a nice weekend, all!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is a Jew?<br />
What is a Christian?<br />
What is a Muslim?<br />
I&#8217;m about to lay out the dumbest analogy in the history of humanity.  Here goes:<br />
If you&#8217;re a believer in any one, you are a believer in all.  All believe in the same God.  The SAME God&#8230;<br />
A Jew is someone who follows the Old Testament.  Abraham, etc&#8230;  &#8220;Abraham is described as a patriarch blessed by God (Genesis 17:5). (From Wikipedia).<br />
A Christian is someone who believes in the teaching of Christ, a Prophet who was born a Jew.  Those teachings accept, not except, the Old Testament and Abraham.  (Christ had no army, so &#8220;An Army of/in Christ&#8221; is not something that Jesus would be the head of).<br />
Muhammad was another Prophet of the Abrahamic tribe.  His path to his God, Allah, also accepted the two prior Abrahamic religions and their teachings.<br />
Oversimplification?  Yes!  But, what is the argument?<br />
Ford developed the mass production of car&#8217;s = Abraham.<br />
General Motors and Chevy punched the old Model-T up = Jesus.<br />
Buick came along and changed a lot of the way things were done in Detroit = Muhammad.<br />
Let&#8217;s say we&#8217;re all trying to get to God = Graceland.<br />
All are nice cars.<br />
All will get you where you want to go &#8211; Graceland.<br />
All have different &#8220;owner manual&#8217;s.&#8221;</p>
<p>Is this what we&#8217;re arguing and killing each other?  Over these manuals?<br />
&#8220;You don&#8217;t change the oil that way on the way to Graceland!  You do it THIS WAY!!!  Or else I&#8217;ll kill you, you son of a jackal!!!!!!!!&#8221;</p>
<p>ME?  I drive a polytheistic car, a Saturn (he was the God of fertility and agriculture).  I kind of like reaping and sowing&#8230;. </p>
<p>Maha, maybe next time we can tackle the Easter Religions &#8211; Honda, Toyota and Suburu <img src='http://www.mahablog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Looking for God is OK folk&#8217;s, just don&#8217;t make fun of other people&#8217;s owners manuals.</p>
<p>&#8216;Nuff said&#8230;</p>
<p>Have a nice weekend, all!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Hughes</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/10/07/hate-speech-and-its-consequences-2/comment-page-1/#comment-37078</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 15:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1081#comment-37078</guid>
		<description>Maha - 

You wrote a good article, but your responses put you in the running for a Pulitzer Prize (when they start giving those out for blogging)  RightOn!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maha &#8211; </p>
<p>You wrote a good article, but your responses put you in the running for a Pulitzer Prize (when they start giving those out for blogging)  RightOn!</p>
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		<title>By: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/10/07/hate-speech-and-its-consequences-2/comment-page-1/#comment-37076</link>
		<dc:creator>maha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 15:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1081#comment-37076</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Maha, seems like you conveniently left yourself out of the list of people who are even possible of fundamentalist attitudes. Its Christians, Muslim, Jews.....But you, the all wise and immune to cultural and social conditioning One? &lt;/i&gt;

Did I not say ALL the world&#039;s major religions? I did. However, the monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) are particularly susceptible for the simple reason that &lt;i&gt;generally&lt;/i&gt; they are more dogmatic -- more based on adherence to belief and dogma -- than other religions. The Karen Armstrong book I cited focuses only on those, although the web page on fundamentalism I linked to also lists Hinduism as a religion infested by fundamentalism.

Buddhism is non-dogmatic,meaning that belief is less important than practice, which makes it less susceptible to fundamentalist theology. In some cases (e.g., Zen, which essentially teaches that all beliefs are crap) Buddhism is even anti-dogmatic. Even so, some sects have grown dogmas over the years, and some sects have taken on some of the characteristics of fundamentalism described on the &quot;Faith and Fundamentalism&quot; page, but I&#039;m not aware of any sects that have become totally fundamentalist.

There are a number of other religions I also didn&#039;t include, such as Baha&#039;i, Jain, Shinto, Zoroastrianism (which I discuss &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mahablog.com/2006/09/14/yay-team/&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;), Confucianism (which one might argue has always been fundamentalist by nature) and Taoism. I consider Sikhism to be a sect of Islam, but the Sikhs are unlikely to be fundies. 

I don&#039;t see that &quot;what is a Christian?&quot; is an impossible question. A Christian is one who follows the teachings of Jesus. Those teachings can be interpreted a lot of different ways, of course. But people who label themselves Christian but aren&#039;t even making a token effort to follow the teachings of Jesus are not, IMO, Christians in a religious sense.  You could argue they are &quot;Christian&quot; in a kind of loose cultural sense, I suppose. 

I see that you are a hateful person and determined to hate me. If you have any other comments I suggest you chill awhile before posting them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Maha, seems like you conveniently left yourself out of the list of people who are even possible of fundamentalist attitudes. Its Christians, Muslim, Jews&#8230;..But you, the all wise and immune to cultural and social conditioning One? </i></p>
<p>Did I not say ALL the world&#8217;s major religions? I did. However, the monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) are particularly susceptible for the simple reason that <i>generally</i> they are more dogmatic &#8212; more based on adherence to belief and dogma &#8212; than other religions. The Karen Armstrong book I cited focuses only on those, although the web page on fundamentalism I linked to also lists Hinduism as a religion infested by fundamentalism.</p>
<p>Buddhism is non-dogmatic,meaning that belief is less important than practice, which makes it less susceptible to fundamentalist theology. In some cases (e.g., Zen, which essentially teaches that all beliefs are crap) Buddhism is even anti-dogmatic. Even so, some sects have grown dogmas over the years, and some sects have taken on some of the characteristics of fundamentalism described on the &#8220;Faith and Fundamentalism&#8221; page, but I&#8217;m not aware of any sects that have become totally fundamentalist.</p>
<p>There are a number of other religions I also didn&#8217;t include, such as Baha&#8217;i, Jain, Shinto, Zoroastrianism (which I discuss <a href="http://www.mahablog.com/2006/09/14/yay-team/">here</a>), Confucianism (which one might argue has always been fundamentalist by nature) and Taoism. I consider Sikhism to be a sect of Islam, but the Sikhs are unlikely to be fundies. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see that &#8220;what is a Christian?&#8221; is an impossible question. A Christian is one who follows the teachings of Jesus. Those teachings can be interpreted a lot of different ways, of course. But people who label themselves Christian but aren&#8217;t even making a token effort to follow the teachings of Jesus are not, IMO, Christians in a religious sense.  You could argue they are &#8220;Christian&#8221; in a kind of loose cultural sense, I suppose. </p>
<p>I see that you are a hateful person and determined to hate me. If you have any other comments I suggest you chill awhile before posting them.</p>
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		<title>By: steveh</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/10/07/hate-speech-and-its-consequences-2/comment-page-1/#comment-37075</link>
		<dc:creator>steveh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 14:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1081#comment-37075</guid>
		<description>Maha, seems like you conveniently left yourself out of the list of people who are even possible of fundamentalist attitudes. Its Christians, Muslim, Jews.....But you, the all wise and immune to cultural and social conditioning One? Must feel special thinking you dont have prejudices that could lead to infestation and corruption.  
 
 You see something as impossible to define as &quot;what is a Christian&quot;, and see it as easy to define as a vacuum cleaner or refrigerator? Nothing fundamental or rigid about your attitude.  
 

  So youre a Buddhist huh? I&#039;ve known a few enlightened Buddhist. I just never met one that would suggest that about themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maha, seems like you conveniently left yourself out of the list of people who are even possible of fundamentalist attitudes. Its Christians, Muslim, Jews&#8230;..But you, the all wise and immune to cultural and social conditioning One? Must feel special thinking you dont have prejudices that could lead to infestation and corruption.  </p>
<p> You see something as impossible to define as &#8220;what is a Christian&#8221;, and see it as easy to define as a vacuum cleaner or refrigerator? Nothing fundamental or rigid about your attitude.  </p>
<p>  So youre a Buddhist huh? I&#8217;ve known a few enlightened Buddhist. I just never met one that would suggest that about themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/10/07/hate-speech-and-its-consequences-2/comment-page-1/#comment-37074</link>
		<dc:creator>maha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 14:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1081#comment-37074</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How do you square your sentiments with WW2?&lt;/i&gt;

Sir, your thinking is mushy. The Third Reich wasn&#039;t a threat to us because they &quot;hated&quot; us. Their emotions were beside the point. It was ideology and greed for power than made them dangerous. The U.S. had to defend itself. 

Self-defense is OK in Buddhism. Back in the day Zen monks really did develop and practice martial arts, you know. But you can defend yourself from someone without hating him. Again, emotions are beside the point. If you have to defend yourself, then defend yourself. And then let go of defending yourself (Zennies are big on not clinging). 

By showing loving kindness to Germans after the war, via the Marshall Plan and the Berlin Airlift, the U.S. turned an enemy into an ally. Compare that with punitive attitudes toward Germany after World War I, which had a lot to do with causing World War II. 

Useless and meaningless, you say? I don&#039;t think so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>How do you square your sentiments with WW2?</i></p>
<p>Sir, your thinking is mushy. The Third Reich wasn&#8217;t a threat to us because they &#8220;hated&#8221; us. Their emotions were beside the point. It was ideology and greed for power than made them dangerous. The U.S. had to defend itself. </p>
<p>Self-defense is OK in Buddhism. Back in the day Zen monks really did develop and practice martial arts, you know. But you can defend yourself from someone without hating him. Again, emotions are beside the point. If you have to defend yourself, then defend yourself. And then let go of defending yourself (Zennies are big on not clinging). </p>
<p>By showing loving kindness to Germans after the war, via the Marshall Plan and the Berlin Airlift, the U.S. turned an enemy into an ally. Compare that with punitive attitudes toward Germany after World War I, which had a lot to do with causing World War II. </p>
<p>Useless and meaningless, you say? I don&#8217;t think so.</p>
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		<title>By: Seattle Man</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/10/07/hate-speech-and-its-consequences-2/comment-page-1/#comment-37072</link>
		<dc:creator>Seattle Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 14:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1081#comment-37072</guid>
		<description>&quot;.. hate is never appeased by hate, but by metta (loving kindness...&quot;

It may not be appeased by hate but it can certainly forestall it.

How do you square your sentiments with WW2? Were the bombs dropped on Germany manifestations of loving kindness?

You make so much sense and so often but such bland offerings as &quot;hate is never appeased by hate...&quot; are really useless and meaningless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;.. hate is never appeased by hate, but by metta (loving kindness&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>It may not be appeased by hate but it can certainly forestall it.</p>
<p>How do you square your sentiments with WW2? Were the bombs dropped on Germany manifestations of loving kindness?</p>
<p>You make so much sense and so often but such bland offerings as &#8220;hate is never appeased by hate&#8230;&#8221; are really useless and meaningless.</p>
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		<title>By: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/10/07/hate-speech-and-its-consequences-2/comment-page-1/#comment-37067</link>
		<dc:creator>maha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 13:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1081#comment-37067</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think its interesting that the very people who show disdain for “fundamentalist Christians” and their literal interpretations of scripture, bolster their arguments against them by pointing to things like …..the literal words of scripture. Hmmmm. Which is it?&lt;/i&gt;

Fundies&#039; alleged &quot;literal interpetation&quot; of scripture, which amounts to picking and choosing what fits their prejudices, is not the &lt;i&gt;fundamental&lt;/i&gt; (cough) problem. Fundamentalism is a social-cultural movement that infests religion and corrupts it, like cancer. In many ways the fundamentalist movements in all the world&#039;s major religions -- particularly that of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam -- are the same disease. They only seem different because the host religions they feed on are different.

I realize that the Christian version of fundamentalism supposedly began with a theological movement in the early 20th century, but I think it&#039;s more accurate to say that the social movement that took the name &quot;fundamentalism&quot; isn&#039;t really about those theological ideas.

There&#039;s a good explanation of the disease of fundamentalism &lt;a href=&quot;http://globalcit.newport.ac.uk/fandfPage.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. For a more in-depth analysis, I recommend Karen Armstrong&#039;s book &lt;em&gt;The Battle for God&lt;/em&gt;.

BTW, it&#039;s because I respect Christianity and the teachings of Jesus that I speak out against fundamentalism. 

Update; One more thing --

&lt;i&gt;When secular observers say “These arent real Christians”..They are employing the very black and white world with no shades of grey they accuse the “fundy” of employing. &lt;/i&gt;

You only see it that way because &quot;Christian&quot; to you is a value judgment. However, I am more dispassionate about it all, as I am no Christian, either, although neither am I &quot;secularist.&quot; I was raised Christian but converted to Buddhism years ago.  

I am just saying that Malkin is no Christian. My cat is not a dog; my refrigerator is not a vacuum cleaner. It&#039;s just a statement of fact. Catty, yes, but fact nonetheless. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think its interesting that the very people who show disdain for “fundamentalist Christians” and their literal interpretations of scripture, bolster their arguments against them by pointing to things like …..the literal words of scripture. Hmmmm. Which is it?</i></p>
<p>Fundies&#8217; alleged &#8220;literal interpetation&#8221; of scripture, which amounts to picking and choosing what fits their prejudices, is not the <i>fundamental</i> (cough) problem. Fundamentalism is a social-cultural movement that infests religion and corrupts it, like cancer. In many ways the fundamentalist movements in all the world&#8217;s major religions &#8212; particularly that of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam &#8212; are the same disease. They only seem different because the host religions they feed on are different.</p>
<p>I realize that the Christian version of fundamentalism supposedly began with a theological movement in the early 20th century, but I think it&#8217;s more accurate to say that the social movement that took the name &#8220;fundamentalism&#8221; isn&#8217;t really about those theological ideas.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a good explanation of the disease of fundamentalism <a href="http://globalcit.newport.ac.uk/fandfPage.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>. For a more in-depth analysis, I recommend Karen Armstrong&#8217;s book <em>The Battle for God</em>.</p>
<p>BTW, it&#8217;s because I respect Christianity and the teachings of Jesus that I speak out against fundamentalism. </p>
<p>Update; One more thing &#8211;</p>
<p><i>When secular observers say “These arent real Christians”..They are employing the very black and white world with no shades of grey they accuse the “fundy” of employing. </i></p>
<p>You only see it that way because &#8220;Christian&#8221; to you is a value judgment. However, I am more dispassionate about it all, as I am no Christian, either, although neither am I &#8220;secularist.&#8221; I was raised Christian but converted to Buddhism years ago.  </p>
<p>I am just saying that Malkin is no Christian. My cat is not a dog; my refrigerator is not a vacuum cleaner. It&#8217;s just a statement of fact. Catty, yes, but fact nonetheless.</p>
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		<title>By: steveh</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2006/10/07/hate-speech-and-its-consequences-2/comment-page-1/#comment-37065</link>
		<dc:creator>steveh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 12:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1081#comment-37065</guid>
		<description>I think its interesting that the very people who show disdain for &quot;fundamentalist Christians&quot; and their literal interpretations of scripture, bolster their arguments against them by pointing to things like .....the literal words of scripture. Hmmmm. Which is it? You can use literal translation of scripture where it says what you want it to say (ie..pacifistic words of Jesus)? And ignore when it demonstrates a very angry God that will inflict capital punishment for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

 Obviously theres a paradox presented by symbolic scripture. You cant stop an attack by some thug trying to kill you or a loved one, and embrace the &quot;love thine enemy&quot; position at the same time. Likewise, you cant be so filled with hatred toward an enemy that you are consumed by it and forget to show mercy and compassion when your foot is on that enemies throat.
 When secular observers say &quot;These arent real Christians&quot;..They are employing the very black and white world with no shades of grey they accuse the &quot;fundy&quot; of employing. They agree with the &quot;love thy enemy&quot; Jesus but cast aside the &quot;dont judge&quot; Jesus?

 You dont have to be an adherent to a 2000 year old religious tradition to be narrow minded. You only have to have a narrow mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think its interesting that the very people who show disdain for &#8220;fundamentalist Christians&#8221; and their literal interpretations of scripture, bolster their arguments against them by pointing to things like &#8230;..the literal words of scripture. Hmmmm. Which is it? You can use literal translation of scripture where it says what you want it to say (ie..pacifistic words of Jesus)? And ignore when it demonstrates a very angry God that will inflict capital punishment for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?</p>
<p> Obviously theres a paradox presented by symbolic scripture. You cant stop an attack by some thug trying to kill you or a loved one, and embrace the &#8220;love thine enemy&#8221; position at the same time. Likewise, you cant be so filled with hatred toward an enemy that you are consumed by it and forget to show mercy and compassion when your foot is on that enemies throat.<br />
 When secular observers say &#8220;These arent real Christians&#8221;..They are employing the very black and white world with no shades of grey they accuse the &#8220;fundy&#8221; of employing. They agree with the &#8220;love thy enemy&#8221; Jesus but cast aside the &#8220;dont judge&#8221; Jesus?</p>
<p> You dont have to be an adherent to a 2000 year old religious tradition to be narrow minded. You only have to have a narrow mind.</p>
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