Y’all will love this. Michael D. Shear writes in today’s Washington Post:
At a recent White House reception for freshman members of Congress, Virginia’s newest senator tried to avoid President Bush. Democrat James Webb declined to stand in a presidential receiving line or to have his picture taken with the man he had often criticized on the stump this fall. But it wasn’t long before Bush found him.
“How’s your boy?” Bush asked, referring to Webb’s son, a Marine serving in Iraq.
“I’d like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President,” Webb responded, echoing a campaign theme.
“That’s not what I asked you,” Bush said. “How’s your boy?”
“That’s between me and my boy, Mr. President,” Webb said coldly, ending the conversation on the State Floor of the East Wing of the White House.
Be still, my heart.
At The Moderate Voice, Michael van der Galien sniffs that Webb should have been more civil. To which I say, bleep that. I can only imagine the grinding, prolonged anguish a parent feels when a child is off fighting in a war. When in fact that child is in danger only because of the corruption and incompetence of politicians, is that parent supposed to bow and scrape to the politician-in-chief like some bleeping courtier?
Bleep that, I say.
Webb didn’t seek the President out to start a fight, note. He spoke up only after Bush was rude to him. Emily Heil writes for The Hill:
At a private reception held at the White House with newly elected lawmakers shortly after the election, Bush asked Webb how his son, a Marine lance corporal serving in Iraq, was doing.
Webb responded that he really wanted to see his son brought back home, said a person who heard about the exchange from Webb.
“I didn’t ask you that, I asked how he’s doing,†Bush retorted, according to the source.
Webb confessed that he was so angered by this that he was tempted to slug the commander-in-chief, reported the source, but of course didn’t. It’s safe to say, however, that Bush and Webb won’t be taking any overseas trips together anytime soon.
Not getting slugged is more respect than The Creature deserves. As Glenn Greenwald says,
It is difficult to fathom the hubris and self-indulgence required for someone to ask a parent of a soldier in Iraq how their son is doing only to then snidely tell the parent that the answer isn’t what he wanted to hear.
Of course, the righties can’t see that Bush was out of line, and are already foaming at the mouth about the “Bush hater.” Like they’re so into civil discourse.
Update: Tristero:
I want to focus entirely on the unspeakable callousness Bush displayed here.
Folks, political enemy or friend, that is no way – ever– for anyone to talk to the father of a kid who’s in a combat zone.
This is the same man who reminisced about his hell-raisin’ during a speech at the worst natural disaster in American history. This is the same man who, when, asked to name his greatest achievement while president, “joked” that it was when he caught a large fish in his fake pond on his Crawford estate – sorry, ranch. This is the same man who, when informed that a second plane had hit the World Trade Center in less than 10 minutes, sat reading “My Pet Goat” in a children’s classroom. This is the same man who, in front of a supporter who he assumed wouldn’t report it, mockingly imitated a woman about to be executed in his state.
Sickening.
Tristero mentions “stunted social skills.” I still think we’re looking at some degree of sociopathy here.
Update update: I knew Taylor Marsh would enjoy this.
I noticed that you tracked back to my site, even though you didn’t mention it in your article, so I’ll ask you specifically the question I asked, somewhat rhetorically, in that column: if Mr Webb did not wish to be seen with or photographed with, or be polite to, President Bush, why did he go to a White House reception for incoming freshmen congressmen in the first place?
He is, after all, a free man, and certainly has every right to choose to attend, or not attend, such a function. Why would he have attended?
the incident hardly seems worthy of the ink already spilled on it, but to respond to Dana, presumably Webb went to the reception because he is going to be one of the 100 senators who will be working with the president and members of the House to try and govern this country. I do not find Dumbya’s question to be terribly out of line, nor do I find Webb’s response to be inappropriate. Dumbya’s rejoinder of “Thats not what I asked” is what escalated the exchange between two people who do not see eye to eye to the point where civil disorder was threatened. While I do not think Webb should have hit Dumbya, a curt F*** You would have seemed in order. Webb is plainly more of a gentleman than I am.
Dana
Webb was invited as the newly elected freshman Senator representing the people of Virginia. I don’t think he went to blow sweet kisses at the president who seems to prefer to preside over a court of sycophants and brown-boot lickers.
Kudos to Senator Webb for popping shrubs bubble.. The President is not King George.
…if Mr Webb did not wish to be seen with or photographed with, or be polite to, President Bush, why did he go to a White House reception for incoming freshmen congressmen in the first place?
Frankly, just because the President of the United States is an incompetent asshole is no reason for Jim Webb to hide from public view. In fact, I’m sure the White House would have considered it a slight had Webb not gone (in the real world, adults frequently end up going to “social” events they’d rather not go to; company Christmas parties come to mind). Going but staying out of Bush’s way was, IMO, the most socially correct choice for Webb to have made. And Webb may have wanted to socialize with the other incoming freshmen.
But I notice you overlook the fact that Webb wasn’t the one who was rude. Bush was unforgivably rude to Webb. Webb walked away. Who was in the wrong here? Answer: Not Webb. Bush was in the wrong.
BTW, the trackback was automatic. I didn’t go out of my way to create it. If you want to delete it, fine with me. I’d rather not have a bunch of Kool-Aid drinking mouth breathers cluttering up my comments section anyway.
Well, Terry, what do you want? I don’t like the fact that the Democrats won control of both Houses of Congress in the last election, but that’s what the voters chose to do. And while I’d guess that you don’t like the fact that President Bush won re-election in 2004, that is also what the voters chose.
In other words, the Congress and the President have to try to live together. Y’all have two years and 52 days left to put up with the voters’ selection in 2004, and fairly small majorities in the Congress; unless you don’t wish to accomplish anything other than sniping with your victory, you’ve got to try to get along with the President and the Republicans in Congress.
NeoJoe and Maha:
I assume that you’ve both noted that this was a reception for incoming freshmen at the White House. That means this wasn’t some get-together which the President just decided to attend; that means that the President was the one who invited Mr Webb and the incoming freshmen.
I don’t know about you, but if I happen to receive an invitation to the home of someone I don’t like or respect, I decline the invitation.
And while I’d guess that you don’t like the fact that President Bush won re-election in 2004, that is also what the voters chose.
There are those who would debate that point, but I’ll overlook that for the moment. The President of the United States is not some kind of God King like the Pharoah. He is subject to the same laws of politeness and etiquette that bind us all, and he violated them. Yet you make excuses for Bush and condemn Webb.
In other words, the Congress and the President have to try to live together.
That goes both ways, toots. If Bush doesn’t learn to get off his high horse and start acting like a president instead of a pharoah, Congress will be well within its constitutional rights and authorities to be, um, impolite.
I don’t know about you, but if I happen to receive an invitation to the home of someone I don’t like or respect, I decline the invitation.
You’ve led a sheltered life, e.g., never worked for a corporation with a toad as CEO.
Maha:
I’m not sure why a trackback would work automatically if you hadn’t referenced my site; WordPress (you are using WordPress, aren’t you?) doesn’t normally work that way.
But, no problem, I’m not offended, and I certainly don’t censor disagreement on my site.
And, quite frankly, I don’t think it was President Bush who was being rude; that’s sure not the way it read to me. But, even if it had been, a true Virginia gentleman (and yes, I lived a good portion of my life in the Old Dominion) would not have responded as Mr Webb did.
Maha: As an incoming senator, Mr Webb will not work for President Bush. He will be an independently elected official, wh owes his office solely to the voters, and he is perfectly free to decline any presidential invitation he wishes.
Dana, thou idiot,
I’m not sure why a trackback would work automatically if you hadn’t referenced my site; WordPress (you are using WordPress, aren’t you?) doesn’t normally work that way.
I did not create the trackback. It was created automatically. I did not realize the trackback had been created until you told me. This is the truth. I hardly ever create trackbacks; I think this year I’ve only done it twice, and only to blogs I like. I have noticed that sometimes WordPress creates trackbacks automatically, and sometimes it doesn’t, and I have no idea why. I have it configured to ping all sorts of stuff automatically (via Ping-o-Matic) so maybe that’s it.
I actually wish you would delete the trackback, because as I said above I don’t have time to talk to twits.
I don’t think it was President Bush who was being rude,
Of course you don’t. Any objective observer, however, would be able to see it.
As an incoming senator, Mr Webb will not work for President Bush.
My Gawd, can we say “dumb as a bag of hammers,” people? The point is, of course, that an invitation to the White House is one of those things that etiquette makes obligatory. It’s not something anyone can turn down without a good excuse (death or alien abduction) without seeming to make a statement. Had Webb not gone, there’d be news stories today about how Webb dissed the president by not going to his reception, and Dana would be whining about THAT.
Brain, Dana. As in, get one. Steal, borrow, or rent. You seem to be short one now.
“… an invitation to the White House is one of those things that etiquette makes obligatory.”
Not to mention that if he declined the invitation he would have missed the opportunity to rub shoulders with his peers and begin to create those relationships that he will rely on in the coming years. It’s an important event, and he would be a fool to miss it.
On another note, the issue of rudeness keeps coming up. To focus on etiquette is to miss the point of the exchange entirely. It was all about power, and both players in this game (and politics is a game) were jockeying for position.
Imagine the same exchange taking place between Tony Soprano and one of his junior rivals, and you’ll see the whole thing for what it was: a power play. Bush thinks of himself as the “Boss”, so when a junior man refuses to respond to his “How’s-your-Boy” (“boy”, not “son”!) … let’s-just-forget-this-war-I-sent-him-to … overture, he attempts to re-establish dominance and control with “That’s not what I asked”. Webb acquitted himself well, although if he said what he said to Tony, he’d get whacked.
“I don’t know about you, but if I happen to receive an invitation to the home of someone I don’t like or respect, I decline the invitation,” huffs Dana.
To me, this is the most troubling Danaism in the comment section. Authoritarian Bush cultists don’t understand this, and most likely never will, but it bears repeating that the White House is not Bush’s home. The White House belongs to the people of the United States and my Senator-elect is not required to kiss up to Bush in order to attend an event in the public section of the people’s White House.
Exactly. And some bloggers today are suggesting that Webb decline any invitations to tour Gitmo.
Seriously, had Webb just answered “fine” or something innocuous to Bush’s first question he would have been betraying his love for his son. Webb showed he has integrity.
I’m with Joe. It was insulting to call Webb’s son a “boy”. It’s interesting to me that that’s what Bush’s father calls him. Are we sending boys to war? Seems just being asked to do what they are being asked to do in Iraq qualifies them as men.
It also seems to me that Bush was attempting his compassionate, I care approach in order to get Webb on his side.
As for Dana, give it up. Maha has you beat intellectually and logically all over the place.
I had to blackball Dana to get him/her/it to stop commenting. The problem with some righties is that they’ll go on and on repeating the same lame arguments after you’ve already responded to them. Maybe they think eventually they’ll just wear you down.
Dana expects civility toward the president who’s behind “extraordinary rendition”? Bush is just lucky he’s not living in the days when American politicians challenged one another to duels.
I hope you cut that crybaby off, maha. Dana can go waste someone else’s time.
I’d like to try to articulate my take on this, for the hard-of-thinking like Dana:
Mr. Webb seems to have been behaving with complete propriety.
It was Mr. Bush who created an awkward social situation.
Many, including myself, would consider it rude for the man who sent Mr. Webb’s son into harm’s way and who is responsible for keeping him there, to ask Mr. Webb how his son was doing. Were Mr. Bush truly concerned, he has the power to do something about it. To me, the question seems a bit like twisting the knife, or rubbing salt into the wound.
A polite Mr. Bush would have chosen a different topic, or, having opened the topic of Webb’s son’s presence in Iraq, been willing to politely listen to whatever Mr. Webb had to say in response. Mr. Webb’s response was, essentially, that his son would be a lot better off if he were out of Iraq. Mr. Bush asked for it. For Bush to respond snappishly that wasn’t what he asked was even more rude.
A more sensible and polite Mr. Bush, had he truly wanted to make a personal connection with Mr. Webb, might have opened with “I’d like to thank your family and your son for his service. I realize we disagree on Iraq politically, but I hope you know I want him and all our troops to be safe.”
But Mr. Bush is not sensible, nor polite, nor even, I believe, completely sane.
How’s your boy??????How in the bleep does bush think he is????????He is in the middle of a civil bleeping war and bush demands Webb tell him how he is doing???Let me tell you,I am not a parent..but if my son were in Iraq I would have taken that question as a threat.It seems to me bush dangled the question as a threat, that maybe he was telling Webb to be a good .The same way a thug would ask about the “family”.It’s not out of line to assume since bush has a pattern of using fear to control people.
The thought that Webb has paid the highest price already by actually sending his son and that is not enough for king george, now Webb is being asked to give him more?When the bush tramps can’t be bothered to show their “support” for the war… that little weasel has some nerve.
I challenge any blogger to put their money where their big fat flapping mouths are and send your child to Iraq NOW and let me ask you stupid questions and demand answers.And you better not give the answer YOU want to give, you BETTER tell me what I want to hear.Lets send the bush twins NOW AND DEMAND laura tell us everyday how her girls are, and the old bat better tell us what we wanna hear!(between puffs of her cigarette).The bush twins can’t go on vacation without getting robbed and being asked to leave countries.Perhaps bush should worry more about HIS OWN children….he sure did a piss poor job of raising them.They tramp about the world like it is their playground in the middle of a “WAR”, yet george can find the time to demand answers from parents with children actually serving.
I take bush’s question as a threat of sorts…play nice Mr.Webb or bush will make sure your boy comes home in a box … that was the message , LOUD AND CLEAR.Anyone who would defend that has no room to EVER tell me they support the troops.Anyone who can’t see it should put your own childs life on the line.
I have employees working for me….and let me tell you, they don’t demand answers from me.I am their boss and they treat me with the respect signing their paychecks has EARNED me… bush, you may need reminded, is our employee… our servant, our peon. He is under me in everyway.If I asked him to pick up the mess my doggie made outside this morning his ass better JUMP and do it, it’s not the other way around, and if he doesn’t like being the servant he never should have taken the job and it is fine by me if he quits NOW….I will help the SOB pack.
Webbs son better watch his back… bush laid down the glove.Street thugs show more class than bush.Perhaps if bush had not hid in Alabama and he had actually gone to a war himself he would not ask stupid questions like “How is your boy doing in the middle of a civil war?”… what a jack ass…but then who expected less from a guy who tortures, starts wars based on lies(wars his daughters are too good to go to),and is a war criminal?, yet is too chicken to even go hunting with cheney….boy dana, you sure picked a real winner to defend.And you may be one of the last people foolish enough to do so…I bet you look real cute in your “my president is a mass murderer and all I got was this lousy tee shirt” tee shirt!I am just sure as much as you support king george you will be willing to triple the amount of taxes you pay to repay the debt your boy king has created right?Where do I sign you up to put your money where your mouth is and actually PAY to support the policies you are a cheerleader for?Do you even understand CHINA(yes RED CHINA) is buying our debt to fund king georges criminal acts and someday we are going to have to pay that bill?
You are a cheerleader for something you dont even understand.Shame on you.Talk to me again dana when this war has cost you anything.Talk to me again when you cried your heart out into a coffin of your loved one.It is easy to be a cheerleader when it costs you nothing….it gets a hell of a lot harder when you step into a man like Mr.Webbs shoes …or into those of a family like mine who has now lost 2 and a leg and a half of a arm.Until you have walked in those shoes honey, you lack much room to talk.
But thanks for telling us with family SERVING this country how we should feel when around king george..with your level of respect for the men and women serving and their families I wonder will you be in line to spit on our troops when they return if they don’t kiss king georges ass correctly?Perhaps you should show more respect for those serving then for the man who send them based on a lie.
Can we help you sign up for a tour in Iraq and give our troops a break?Some of them are on their 5th tour!Step up or shut up.
Bush at the Ford Theater:
“That’s not what I asked you, Mrs. Lincoln! I asked you how you enjoyed the play, dammit!”
How hard would it have been for Bush to just say, “Yes, we all want them home safely.”? That is what he wants (eventually), isn’t it? Geez, can’t we have future presidential candidates submit to a psychological/”personality” test or something? I had to take one for my first job out of college…
Common Sense Political Thought – ha, as Enstein said, common sense is a form of prejudice–so, Prejudiced Political Thought, that’s the ticket!
Great comment, Joe..# 13 a perfect analogy to describe the dynamic at work.
justme……thank you, thank you.
Bush hasn’t got a clue how to handle a situation like this. Imagine how deftly a Bill Clinton or even a Ronald Reagan would have parried Webb’s challenge.
This is just another example of how deeply over his head this man is in the Presidency. Hold your breath for two more years.
Joe hit the nail in the head # 13. Mind games may seem to be beyond this twerp in the WH, but I think that’s EXACTLY what he intended when he asked the question, which was intended to remind Webb, the he (Bush) as C-inC had control OVER Webs ‘boy’. I expect that’s how Webb interpreted it, and why he responded as he did.
“I’d rather not have a bunch of Kool-Aid drinking mouth breathers cluttering up my comments section anyway.”
Is that indicative of the civility you chastised “the righties” for not having in this very post? Just wondering.
“Is that indicative of the civility you chastised ‘the righties’ for not having in this very post?”
Could you please, for me, point out where maha “chastized” the righties for incivility in “this very post”? Kthxbye.
-me
(hoping that font tag works correctly…)
How does Webb’s son feel about the war?
WHO CARES??? DUMBYA IS AN ASSHOLE!
Sounds like Jim Webb is jumping the gun a bit on his absolute moral authority.
“How’s your boy?”
Normal answers:
“Fine.”
“He’s [fill in the blank], but I wish he was home, not fighting a war.”
“He’s [fill in the blank]. I just wish he didn’t enlist and fight in this illegal war. He must be an idiot (just ask Kerry & Rangel).”
Answer from a politician who doesn’t answer the question that was asked:
“I’d like to get THEM out of Iraq.”
Bush was asking a “break the ice” question. (If he’d referred to his son as a “girl,” that would have been insulting. “Boy” is a term of endearment between fathers.) He was probably trying to start a conversation or just be polite. Webb responds with a political jab. Bush responds with “that’s not what I asked,” and Webb comes back with, in effect, “Bite me.”
I’d like to see any of you who think Webb was the hero here do that if you got invited to a party by your boss or CEO. Can you say “update my resume?”
He was probably trying to start a conversation or just be polite.
It’s stunning to me the way you righties make excuses for the President’s social ineptitude, if indeed that’s what it was. A GRACIOUS person, a BIG person, would NEVER have said “I didn’t ask you that, I asked how he’s doing.†Only an ASSHOLE would say that. And, may I say, only an asshole wouldn’t be able to see how out of line Bush was. It seems to me he was deliberately being belligerent to Webb.
I’d like to see any of you who think Webb was the hero here do that if you got invited to a party by your boss or CEO. Can you say “update my resume?â€
You prove my point. I’ve worked for bosses who were martinets like that, and you’re right. Your choices are to swallow your pride and let the boss dump on you, or you get another job. I’ve done both, at different times. But when people in authority act this way, it indicates they are small, petty, insecure people, as well as assholes. This is not a trait I want to see in a POTUS. It’s proof he is not worthy of the job. He’s not worthy to sit in George Washington’s chair.
The POTUS is not Webb’s employer, nor is he the king. The President the servant of the people, and he’s a temporary resident in the people’s house. You seem to think he’s Louis XIV, and it’s OK if he treats people like crap. Well, it’s not OK with me.
Sounds like Jim Webb is jumping the gun a bit on his absolute moral authority.
Sounds like you’re a Kool-Aid drinking mouth breather.
I guess I was just raised to respect the office of the POTUS, whether it was populated by Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, or George Bush, legitimately elected or not.
A gracious person, a big person, would never have answered a personal inquiry from any POTUS with a political jab. It seems to me he was deliberately being belligerent to Bush.
Standard social ettiquette calls for politeness, even if you don’t like or disagree with the other person. Could Bush have answered differently? Sure. But I think he was trying not to have a political conversation and Webb wanted to make a political point.
I agree with earlier posts that it would not be appropriate to reject the invitation to the event. But Webb could have just nodded his head, posed for the pic, rubbed shoulders with the other Dems, then throw the pic in the trash later. I think his position on the war is well known. It didn’t stop Pelosi and others from posing with Bush in other meetings (even though they slam him in other settings).
I’m not expecting to convince you that your position is wrong. I can accept your position that you think Bush was rude, I just want to make you aware of another reasonable point of view.
I just went back and read your original post. You think that physical violence against Bush would not be uncalled for. I guess I won’t be taken seriously here…
I’ll leave you with this thought (and then I’ll leave – no need to ban me): Have you ever been in a negotiation with someone on an equal or lesser footing, insulted that person, then expected to get what you wanted? I know you think Bush insulted Webb, but I think Webb was out of line. In either case, Bush is the one who has the higher footing (I assume you agree that the POTUS has more power than a Senator – but of course not as much as a king!). If a Senator wants to gain concessions from a President, he should be cordial in person.
With a majority in Congress, the Dems can flex their muscles in that venue. But one on one, the POTUS wins. Even if you don’t like him.
OC, Bush gets a lot more respect than he deserves. We are in a war which is the product of deceit. We were lied to; Sadaam was not a threat; he was not aligned with terrorists. Bush withheld even from Powell the inconveient facts. Nearly 3000 GIs are dead. Somewhere between 50 and 600 thousand civilians are dead. Bush refuses even now to change the path of destruction he has charted. And you are amazed that people are rude to Bush.
Bumper Sticker:
“If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention!”
People are starting to pay attention; the election shows how outraged they are, and Bush is going to catch the brunt of it.
OC Chuck’s perspective (#36) is interesting, in that he clearly says the person with the “higher footing” or the greater individual power is under less obligation to be gracious to others than someone who is subordinate. I think that point of view is seriously twisted and is certainly not based on the values on which our nation was founded. This goes back to the fact that righties are (whether they admit it or not) all about subordinating themselves to an authority figure. And it explains the rightie mindset and why they can’t see that Bush was a great deal more in the wrong than Webb was.
Also, for the record, I DON’T think physical violence is called for against anyone except in self-defense, but I certainly understand an urge to punch out insufferable little assholes like Bush.
Webb could have just nodded his head, posed for the pic, rubbed shoulders with the other Dems, then throw the pic in the trash later.
In other words, he could have just repressed and betrayed his love for his son.
You just. Don’t. Get it. You really expect to get somewhere when you encourage people to completely and totally disrespect the office and position of the POTUS.
You have no idea what you’re doing to tear this country down, and the really pathetic thing is, I know you’re convinced that I don’t get it.
Oh, and nice back-pedaling on this:
“Not getting slugged is more respect than The Creature deserves.
Flame away, assholes.
The Mouth Breathers are leaving the usual offal on the thread so I’m going to close it. I only want to explain to #40 that it’s because I DO respect the office and position of the POTUS that I am so appalled a piece of crap like George W. Bush is in it.