Comments on: What Lincoln Said http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/14/what-lincoln-said/ Making the World Safe for Liberalism Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:26:01 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Talk Nation » Look who’s emboldening the terrorists now! http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/14/what-lincoln-said/comment-page-1/#comment-91429 Talk Nation » Look who’s emboldening the terrorists now! Sun, 18 Feb 2007 03:48:30 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1464#comment-91429 [...] Then of course there was the recent phony “Lincoln” quote drummed up by J. Michael Waller and regurgitated by Frank Gaffney in his Washington Times column to which I would link except it has now been removed from the WashTimes site because the glaringly obvious fraud it contains was apparently too embarrassing even for them. But that didn’t stop Rep. Don Young (R-AK) from repeating it on the floor of the House the other day. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story, I always say. [...] [...] Then of course there was the recent phony “Lincoln” quote drummed up by J. Michael Waller and regurgitated by Frank Gaffney in his Washington Times column to which I would link except it has now been removed from the WashTimes site because the glaringly obvious fraud it contains was apparently too embarrassing even for them. But that didn’t stop Rep. Don Young (R-AK) from repeating it on the floor of the House the other day. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story, I always say. [...]

]]> By: JD http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/14/what-lincoln-said/comment-page-1/#comment-86248 JD Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:52:37 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1464#comment-86248 My implied point was that both sides of political arguments in this country use (or abuse, depending on whose ox is gored) the utterances of historical figures to support their views, usually without considering the whole of the figure's career. Are you saying that advocating the internment of people based on their nation of origin does not advocate erosion of liberties (TR)? Abrogating freedom of the press by shutting down copperhead newspapers does not constitute erosion of liberties or stifling of criticism (AL)? Maybe it's time to think before quoting. My implied point was that both sides of political arguments in this country use (or abuse, depending on whose ox is gored) the utterances of historical figures to support their views, usually without considering the whole of the figure’s career. Are you saying that advocating the internment of people based on their nation of origin does not advocate erosion of liberties (TR)? Abrogating freedom of the press by shutting down copperhead newspapers does not constitute erosion of liberties or stifling of criticism (AL)? Maybe it’s time to think before quoting.

]]> By: fshk http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/14/what-lincoln-said/comment-page-1/#comment-86184 fshk Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:25:06 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1464#comment-86184 JD, I don't think your point is relevant. The main point of the post is that the quote from Gaffney's column is not attributable to Lincoln and that Lincoln, in fact, advocated dissent where necessary. Lincoln himself received a significant amount of criticism in his day, was not a particularly popular president, and would have lost the 1864 election to McClellan (who promised to end the war) had the troops not voted for him in overwhelming numbers. He surely made some policy errors, as well. But he would not have advocated stifling criticism. He also retroactively got permission from Congress for his more drastic actions at the beginning of the Civil War, which is more than you can say for the current administration. You can argue whether or not suspending habeas corpus was a necessary step, but that's not your argument either, so it's moot. TR made his fair share of errors, too. Most of our American heroes are not the gods we depict them as. However, they did not advocate the erosion of the liberties on which the country was founded, as these neocons writing columns seem to think they did. And that's the whole point. JD, I don’t think your point is relevant. The main point of the post is that the quote from Gaffney’s column is not attributable to Lincoln and that Lincoln, in fact, advocated dissent where necessary. Lincoln himself received a significant amount of criticism in his day, was not a particularly popular president, and would have lost the 1864 election to McClellan (who promised to end the war) had the troops not voted for him in overwhelming numbers. He surely made some policy errors, as well. But he would not have advocated stifling criticism. He also retroactively got permission from Congress for his more drastic actions at the beginning of the Civil War, which is more than you can say for the current administration. You can argue whether or not suspending habeas corpus was a necessary step, but that’s not your argument either, so it’s moot.

TR made his fair share of errors, too. Most of our American heroes are not the gods we depict them as. However, they did not advocate the erosion of the liberties on which the country was founded, as these neocons writing columns seem to think they did. And that’s the whole point.

]]> By: JD http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/14/what-lincoln-said/comment-page-1/#comment-86162 JD Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:30:43 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1464#comment-86162 "Among the 13,000 people arrested under martial law was a Maryland Secessionist, John Merryman. Immediately, Hon. Roger B. Taney, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States issued a writ of habeas corpus commanding the military to bring Merryman before him. The military refused to follow the writ. Justice Taney, in Ex parte MERRYMAN, then ruled the suspension of habeas corpus unconstitutional because the writ could not be suspended without an Act of Congress. President Lincoln and the military ignored Justice Taney's ruling." From www.civilliberties.com. Never said Lincoln wasn't successful in suspending habeas corpus. As you can see, the constitutionality of his act was questioned at the time. Not saying the suspension wasn't a practical necessity from Lincoln's point of view, either. “Among the 13,000 people arrested under martial law was a Maryland Secessionist, John Merryman. Immediately, Hon. Roger B. Taney, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States issued a writ of habeas corpus commanding the military to bring Merryman before him. The military refused to follow the writ. Justice Taney, in Ex parte MERRYMAN, then ruled the suspension of habeas corpus unconstitutional because the writ could not be suspended without an Act of Congress. President Lincoln and the military ignored Justice Taney’s ruling.” From http://www.civilliberties.com.

Never said Lincoln wasn’t successful in suspending habeas corpus. As you can see, the constitutionality of his act was questioned at the time. Not saying the suspension wasn’t a practical necessity from Lincoln’s point of view, either.

]]> By: D.R. Marvel http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/14/what-lincoln-said/comment-page-1/#comment-86155 D.R. Marvel Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:00:54 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1464#comment-86155 President Abraham Lincoln DID suspend the use of the writ of habeas corpus...Exactly as he was required to do by the U.S. Constitution...Right therre in blackand white, put down by the Founding Fathers to guide us through every possible convolution of our political and cultural adolescence to a hoped-for maturity we like to think we've reached... MF'ers that fabricate hatefulo and gurtful Licoln quotes ought to be strung up on the highest lampost in D.C....In Chains... President Abraham Lincoln DID suspend the use of the writ of habeas corpus…Exactly as he was required to do by the U.S. Constitution…Right therre in blackand white, put down by the Founding Fathers to guide us through every possible convolution of our political and cultural adolescence to a hoped-for maturity we like to think we’ve reached…

MF’ers that fabricate hatefulo and gurtful Licoln quotes ought to be strung up on the highest lampost in D.C….In Chains…

]]> By: JD http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/14/what-lincoln-said/comment-page-1/#comment-86103 JD Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:27:47 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1464#comment-86103 One should remember however that Lincoln, under the pressures of civil war, attempted to suspend habeas corpus, and that TR, impelled by the fact that all four of his sons were in uniform during WWI, spoke virulently against German-Americans, advocated internment for them and campaigned to have the German language stricken from all curricula. Not endorsing the latter actions, mind you--just pointing out that even great men have their inconsistencies. One should remember however that Lincoln, under the pressures of civil war, attempted to suspend habeas corpus, and that TR, impelled by the fact that all four of his sons were in uniform during WWI, spoke virulently against German-Americans, advocated internment for them and campaigned to have the German language stricken from all curricula.

Not endorsing the latter actions, mind you–just pointing out that even great men have their inconsistencies.

]]> By: Lynne http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/14/what-lincoln-said/comment-page-1/#comment-86049 Lynne Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:41:24 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1464#comment-86049 Thanks for this, Barbara. Certain folks like to align themselves with an imaginary Lincoln. Thanks for this, Barbara. Certain folks like to align themselves with an imaginary Lincoln.

]]> By: Swami http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/14/what-lincoln-said/comment-page-1/#comment-85860 Swami Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:42:59 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1464#comment-85860 There's a lot of similiaries between Lincoln's war with Mexico speech and the run up to the Invasion to Iraq. I like the part where Lincoln mentions about cheating the superficial thinker. I think Bush, Cheney, and the rest of the Neocon minions cheated a bunch if modern day superficial thinker. " We don't want the smoking gun to be in the form of a mushroom cloud", They'll follow us home....? There’s a lot of similiaries between Lincoln’s war with Mexico speech and the run up to the Invasion to Iraq. I like the part where Lincoln mentions about cheating the superficial thinker. I think Bush, Cheney, and the rest of the Neocon minions cheated a bunch if modern day superficial thinker. ” We don’t want the smoking gun to be in the form of a mushroom cloud”, They’ll follow us home….?

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