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	<title>Comments on: Deliberations</title>
	<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/</link>
	<description>Exposing the ugly truths about the Bush Administration.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Cugel</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-88067</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Feb 2007 03:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-88067</guid>
					<description>There is something that is seldom commented on and that is the &lt;i&gt;presumed&lt;/i&gt; versus the &lt;i&gt;actual&lt;/i&gt; burden of proof in criminal trials. 

If you had ever served as defense counsel and even more if you have ever served on a jury in a felony trial, and I've done both, you know something different than the traditional take on presumed innocence.

There is a strong current of presumed guilt in felony trials. The jury is instructed endlessly about reasonable doubt, but they take their prejudices into the courtroom with them. And belief that &quot;the police wouldn't have arrested him if he didn't do something&quot; is one of the strongest.

The belief that the authorities tell the truth is another. Despite the burden shifting to the prosecution, I think the real burden is on the defendant to knock some hole in the prosecution's case so that the jury think he might actually be innocent, and it's not always easy to do it either. 

Credibility contests tend to get resolved in favor of the prosecution. Not always or in all circumstances, but enough of the time. 

There's a strong authoritarian streak in America and a lot of people think the government is always right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There is something that is seldom commented on and that is the <i>presumed</i> versus the <i>actual</i> burden of proof in criminal trials. </p>
	<p>If you had ever served as defense counsel and even more if you have ever served on a jury in a felony trial, and I&#8217;ve done both, you know something different than the traditional take on presumed innocence.</p>
	<p>There is a strong current of presumed guilt in felony trials. The jury is instructed endlessly about reasonable doubt, but they take their prejudices into the courtroom with them. And belief that &#8220;the police wouldn&#8217;t have arrested him if he didn&#8217;t do something&#8221; is one of the strongest.</p>
	<p>The belief that the authorities tell the truth is another. Despite the burden shifting to the prosecution, I think the real burden is on the defendant to knock some hole in the prosecution&#8217;s case so that the jury think he might actually be innocent, and it&#8217;s not always easy to do it either. </p>
	<p>Credibility contests tend to get resolved in favor of the prosecution. Not always or in all circumstances, but enough of the time. </p>
	<p>There&#8217;s a strong authoritarian streak in America and a lot of people think the government is always right.
</p>
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		<title>by: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-87375</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-87375</guid>
					<description>I would like J. Black to know  (before I revoke his commenting privileges, as I am about to do) that my red-haired, freckled, and U.S. Army officer nephew is in Iraq now. 

White racism is an ugly thing. So is black racism.I don't put up with either one here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I would like J. Black to know  (before I revoke his commenting privileges, as I am about to do) that my red-haired, freckled, and U.S. Army officer nephew is in Iraq now. </p>
	<p>White racism is an ugly thing. So is black racism.I don&#8217;t put up with either one here.
</p>
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		<title>by: J Black</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-87108</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-87108</guid>
					<description>When Libby get's off, I wonder if his verdit will resonant throughout america the way OJ's did?

I wonder if Libby's freedom will cause angry and distrust of the legal system the way OJ's did?

I wonder if Libby's acquittal by a mostly white jury, in that he is a white male being adjudicated in a mostly black city, will cause the public to disavow the jury system, the white americans did after the OJ trial?

My guess is that it will not cause a commotion. Why, because of the kind of ratiocinations inferred in the above mention blog.

Perhaps to paraphrase Mr. Dawkins, the activity should be called &quot;The White Race delusion&quot;.

An people of color are fighting and dying in Iraq for what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>When Libby get&#8217;s off, I wonder if his verdit will resonant throughout america the way OJ&#8217;s did?</p>
	<p>I wonder if Libby&#8217;s freedom will cause angry and distrust of the legal system the way OJ&#8217;s did?</p>
	<p>I wonder if Libby&#8217;s acquittal by a mostly white jury, in that he is a white male being adjudicated in a mostly black city, will cause the public to disavow the jury system, the white americans did after the OJ trial?</p>
	<p>My guess is that it will not cause a commotion. Why, because of the kind of ratiocinations inferred in the above mention blog.</p>
	<p>Perhaps to paraphrase Mr. Dawkins, the activity should be called &#8220;The White Race delusion&#8221;.</p>
	<p>An people of color are fighting and dying in Iraq for what?
</p>
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		<title>by: Art James (clownsense etc)</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-86916</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-86916</guid>
					<description>To Swami.

Hey, why be harsh at the &quot;flaky?&quot; We people think no two-snow-flakes are alike? Wrong. Some star snow flakes are never-two-same-same, true. But, in the molecular level world, nothing is ever the same-same identical, anyway. Take away one small molecule from a cumulus snow-Flake and it's different. That's not cynical, it's fact. No two people weigh in in Life's battle weighing or looking the same.

So, Swami. I have no idea of what's a better word than FLAKEY, either. Let's repeat, No two people are the same. No two roses are identical. No two dogs are alike. All politicians are flakier, yep, your right? I think. I heard this discussion on a radio frequency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To Swami.</p>
	<p>Hey, why be harsh at the &#8220;flaky?&#8221; We people think no two-snow-flakes are alike? Wrong. Some star snow flakes are never-two-same-same, true. But, in the molecular level world, nothing is ever the same-same identical, anyway. Take away one small molecule from a cumulus snow-Flake and it&#8217;s different. That&#8217;s not cynical, it&#8217;s fact. No two people weigh in in Life&#8217;s battle weighing or looking the same.</p>
	<p>So, Swami. I have no idea of what&#8217;s a better word than FLAKEY, either. Let&#8217;s repeat, No two people are the same. No two roses are identical. No two dogs are alike. All politicians are flakier, yep, your right? I think. I heard this discussion on a radio frequency.
</p>
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		<title>by: Julie O.</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-86407</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-86407</guid>
					<description>I have jury duty March 5.  Gack.

Last time I was on a jury was to determine damages in a simple accident with only 9 of 12 required to agree, which was hard enough.  I was 19.  Another older juror remarked -- in direct violation of our instructions, of course -- that he worried about where the defendant would get the money to pay, and that all lawyers are just in it for the money.  I stated, &quot;That's cynical.&quot;  His retort: &quot;&lt;i&gt;You're&lt;/i&gt; cynical.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have jury duty March 5.  Gack.</p>
	<p>Last time I was on a jury was to determine damages in a simple accident with only 9 of 12 required to agree, which was hard enough.  I was 19.  Another older juror remarked &#8212; in direct violation of our instructions, of course &#8212; that he worried about where the defendant would get the money to pay, and that all lawyers are just in it for the money.  I stated, &#8220;That&#8217;s cynical.&#8221;  His retort: &#8220;<i>You&#8217;re</i> cynical.&#8221;
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		<title>by: Tom Hilton</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-86403</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 23:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-86403</guid>
					<description>What I guess I don't get is how a 'faulty memory' defense can be plausible when Libby clearly invented a whole exchange with Russert.  Not recalling something--fine.  Getting a few details wrong--okay.  But this wasn't hazy memory or omissions, this was a matter of affirmative representations that were completely false.  Unless I'm missing something, that is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What I guess I don&#8217;t get is how a &#8216;faulty memory&#8217; defense can be plausible when Libby clearly invented a whole exchange with Russert.  Not recalling something&#8211;fine.  Getting a few details wrong&#8211;okay.  But this wasn&#8217;t hazy memory or omissions, this was a matter of affirmative representations that were completely false.  Unless I&#8217;m missing something, that is.
</p>
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		<title>by: Bonnie</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-86284</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-86284</guid>
					<description>I think that the evidence presented by the prosecutor showed that Libby lied to the grand jury.  And, I think the obstruction charge was proved also.  But, I wasn't there to hear all the stuff as it was told to the jury.  That is basically the difference between being there in person and just reading reports about it.  I think with the playing of the grand jury tapes showed the lies; and, he did not appear to be just not remembering things correctly.   But, that's just one old woman's opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think that the evidence presented by the prosecutor showed that Libby lied to the grand jury.  And, I think the obstruction charge was proved also.  But, I wasn&#8217;t there to hear all the stuff as it was told to the jury.  That is basically the difference between being there in person and just reading reports about it.  I think with the playing of the grand jury tapes showed the lies; and, he did not appear to be just not remembering things correctly.   But, that&#8217;s just one old woman&#8217;s opinion.
</p>
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		<title>by: Swami</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-86211</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/02/15/deliberations/#comment-86211</guid>
					<description>I wouldn't be surprised if Libby was acquitted either..only because people are flakey.. It's obvious that he lied. Libby effectively reduced serious charges of a national security breach down to perjury counts which he has a 50% chance to evade by facing prosecution with a guaranteed presidential pardon waiting in the wings to nullify the other 50% if it should come against him. To Libby it'll be just an inconvience..no worse than a prostate exam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if Libby was acquitted either..only because people are flakey.. It&#8217;s obvious that he lied. Libby effectively reduced serious charges of a national security breach down to perjury counts which he has a 50% chance to evade by facing prosecution with a guaranteed presidential pardon waiting in the wings to nullify the other 50% if it should come against him. To Libby it&#8217;ll be just an inconvience..no worse than a prostate exam.
</p>
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