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	<title>Comments on: Bingo</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/</link>
	<description>Making the World Safe for Liberalism</description>
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		<title>By: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-171191</link>
		<dc:creator>maha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1543#comment-171191</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What about my proposal? There is already provisional balloting available most everywhere.&lt;/i&gt;

One suspects those &quot;provisional&quot; ballots have a way of not getting counted.

&lt;i&gt;Is there a method that you could think of that would be secure, yet not “burdensome”?&lt;/i&gt;

As far as I know everyone is required to present ID when registering to vote, which IMO is a workable system. It&#039;s not perfect, but so far I haven&#039;t seen any evidence that there is more voter fraud going on now than has been true for the past couple of centuries or so. In fact, it&#039;s possible there is less voter fraud now than in the days of the city bosses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What about my proposal? There is already provisional balloting available most everywhere.</i></p>
<p>One suspects those &#8220;provisional&#8221; ballots have a way of not getting counted.</p>
<p><i>Is there a method that you could think of that would be secure, yet not “burdensome”?</i></p>
<p>As far as I know everyone is required to present ID when registering to vote, which IMO is a workable system. It&#8217;s not perfect, but so far I haven&#8217;t seen any evidence that there is more voter fraud going on now than has been true for the past couple of centuries or so. In fact, it&#8217;s possible there is less voter fraud now than in the days of the city bosses.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-170450</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 04:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1543#comment-170450</guid>
		<description>What about my proposal?  There is already provisional balloting available most everywhere.  Is there a method that you could think of that would be secure, yet not &quot;burdensome&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about my proposal?  There is already provisional balloting available most everywhere.  Is there a method that you could think of that would be secure, yet not &#8220;burdensome&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-170260</link>
		<dc:creator>maha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 03:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1543#comment-170260</guid>
		<description>Dan -- First, read &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/18/washington/18attorneys.html?ei=5124&amp;en=827fbb9a7b1575a8&amp;ex=1331870400&amp;partner=permalink&amp;exprod=permalink&amp;pagewanted=all&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt; about purged U.S. attorney Iglesias&#039;s investigation of voter fraud. &quot;&#039;Culling through about 100 tips about fraud, investigators found only a handful that had some merit, and “only one where we had a real shot,&#039; Mr. Iglesias said.&quot; But the Republican Party was pressuring Iglesias to file federal charges whether there was evidence or not. That&#039;s why this is a scandal.

Regarding voter fraud -- sure, it&#039;s serious, when it happens, it should be investigated vigorously, and if caught it should be severely punished. If you could think up a way to make fraud more difficult without it being burdensome to any legitimate voters, that would be fine by me. No one has done that yet, that I&#039;ve heard.

The real issue is that whenever Republicans lose an election they imagine fraud. And most of the time, apparently, this is a bugaboo in their own twitchy little minds.This country has a lot more pressing problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan &#8212; First, read <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/18/washington/18attorneys.html?ei=5124&amp;en=827fbb9a7b1575a8&amp;ex=1331870400&amp;partner=permalink&amp;exprod=permalink&amp;pagewanted=all" rel="nofollow">this article</a> about purged U.S. attorney Iglesias&#8217;s investigation of voter fraud. &#8220;&#8216;Culling through about 100 tips about fraud, investigators found only a handful that had some merit, and “only one where we had a real shot,&#8217; Mr. Iglesias said.&#8221; But the Republican Party was pressuring Iglesias to file federal charges whether there was evidence or not. That&#8217;s why this is a scandal.</p>
<p>Regarding voter fraud &#8212; sure, it&#8217;s serious, when it happens, it should be investigated vigorously, and if caught it should be severely punished. If you could think up a way to make fraud more difficult without it being burdensome to any legitimate voters, that would be fine by me. No one has done that yet, that I&#8217;ve heard.</p>
<p>The real issue is that whenever Republicans lose an election they imagine fraud. And most of the time, apparently, this is a bugaboo in their own twitchy little minds.This country has a lot more pressing problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-170105</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1543#comment-170105</guid>
		<description>We can argue back and forth about what constitutes a &quot;valid&quot; or &quot;invalid&quot; source.  The question is whether in some particular instance what they say is right or not.

How exactly is it that minority voters are placed at a disadvantage by a requirement to demonstrate citizenship?  Would you be satisfied, for example, if there were a program to supply every eligible voter with a legal form of picture identification for free, with house calls available?  Would that be burdensome?

How serious an offense ought it be to vote under false pretenses or in multiple locations or to submit an absentee ballot and vote elsewhere?  Should it be considered as serious as check fraud?  Should it be considered as serious as perjury?  And if it were, how diligently ought it be pursued?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We can argue back and forth about what constitutes a &#8220;valid&#8221; or &#8220;invalid&#8221; source.  The question is whether in some particular instance what they say is right or not.</p>
<p>How exactly is it that minority voters are placed at a disadvantage by a requirement to demonstrate citizenship?  Would you be satisfied, for example, if there were a program to supply every eligible voter with a legal form of picture identification for free, with house calls available?  Would that be burdensome?</p>
<p>How serious an offense ought it be to vote under false pretenses or in multiple locations or to submit an absentee ballot and vote elsewhere?  Should it be considered as serious as check fraud?  Should it be considered as serious as perjury?  And if it were, how diligently ought it be pursued?</p>
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		<title>By: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-167891</link>
		<dc:creator>maha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Mar 2007 03:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1543#comment-167891</guid>
		<description>Dan: First, PowerLine is a joke, and any links to PowerLine as &quot;proof&quot; of anything are pointless.

The &lt;i&gt;New York Times&lt;/i&gt; does not advocate allowing non-citizens to vote. That&#039;s absurd. But I guess if you believe PowerLine you&#039;d believe anything.

No one says there is no such thing as voter fraud, just that most of the voter fraud Republicans talk about exists only in their fevered imaginations.Your one example doesn&#039;t change that fact. Show me proof of voter fraud in the districts in which u.s. attorneys were purged. A case of voter fraud in Milwaukee is not proof that it&#039;s going in in Seattle.

Throughout American history all kinds of &quot;requirements&quot; have been used to prevent minorities from voting, like poll taxes and poll tests. Voter ID requirements are just another scam to keep minorities and poor from voting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan: First, PowerLine is a joke, and any links to PowerLine as &#8220;proof&#8221; of anything are pointless.</p>
<p>The <i>New York Times</i> does not advocate allowing non-citizens to vote. That&#8217;s absurd. But I guess if you believe PowerLine you&#8217;d believe anything.</p>
<p>No one says there is no such thing as voter fraud, just that most of the voter fraud Republicans talk about exists only in their fevered imaginations.Your one example doesn&#8217;t change that fact. Show me proof of voter fraud in the districts in which u.s. attorneys were purged. A case of voter fraud in Milwaukee is not proof that it&#8217;s going in in Seattle.</p>
<p>Throughout American history all kinds of &#8220;requirements&#8221; have been used to prevent minorities from voting, like poll taxes and poll tests. Voter ID requirements are just another scam to keep minorities and poor from voting.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-167524</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1543#comment-167524</guid>
		<description>&quot;Rampant&quot; is a weasel word.  It needn&#039;t be &quot;rampant&quot; by the NYT&#039;s definition to be effective:

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/017061.php

Here&#039;s another interesting case in point.  Perhaps the NYT believes that The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel is a right-wing organ:

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=324933

Meanwhile, NYC is considering allowing all residents, legal or not, the right to vote, even as foreign students are ejected from Mexico for having the temerity to join political demonstrations, as Mexican social services officials fly into the US to support illegal immigrants&#039; rights demonstrations, and Mexican military take bribes from Guatemaltecas attempting to cross between machine gun emplacements.

You need a picture ID to cash a check.  Of course, that&#039;s much more important than safeguarding the integrity of the ballot.  But I only say that because I want to suppress the rights of the unfortunate, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Rampant&#8221; is a weasel word.  It needn&#8217;t be &#8220;rampant&#8221; by the NYT&#8217;s definition to be effective:</p>
<p><a href="http://powerlineblog.com/archives/017061.php" rel="nofollow">http://powerlineblog.com/archives/017061.php</a></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s another interesting case in point.  Perhaps the NYT believes that The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel is a right-wing organ:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=324933" rel="nofollow">http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=324933</a></p>
<p>Meanwhile, NYC is considering allowing all residents, legal or not, the right to vote, even as foreign students are ejected from Mexico for having the temerity to join political demonstrations, as Mexican social services officials fly into the US to support illegal immigrants&#8217; rights demonstrations, and Mexican military take bribes from Guatemaltecas attempting to cross between machine gun emplacements.</p>
<p>You need a picture ID to cash a check.  Of course, that&#8217;s much more important than safeguarding the integrity of the ballot.  But I only say that because I want to suppress the rights of the unfortunate, right?</p>
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		<title>By: pluky</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-166937</link>
		<dc:creator>pluky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1543#comment-166937</guid>
		<description>Prosecutors investigate allegations of crime. However, if they cannot collect sufficient evidence that:

-- a crime was likely committed
-- the person(s) named is(are) the probable cause of said crime

no Grand Jury will return a true bill of indictment.

The cliche that &quot;a Grand Jury will indict a ham sandwich&quot; works not because the panelists are gullible, but because a competent prosecutor won&#039;t present garbage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prosecutors investigate allegations of crime. However, if they cannot collect sufficient evidence that:</p>
<p>&#8211; a crime was likely committed<br />
&#8211; the person(s) named is(are) the probable cause of said crime</p>
<p>no Grand Jury will return a true bill of indictment.</p>
<p>The cliche that &#8220;a Grand Jury will indict a ham sandwich&#8221; works not because the panelists are gullible, but because a competent prosecutor won&#8217;t present garbage.</p>
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		<title>By: biggerbox</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-163129</link>
		<dc:creator>biggerbox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2007 17:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1543#comment-163129</guid>
		<description>Absolutely right. It&#039;s clear that the &#039;problem&#039; was not that they didn&#039;t investigate, but that they didn&#039;t indict. McKay did look into the allegations, and talked to a bunch of people, and no one, not even local Republican elected officials, had evidence to give him.

The right-wingers have an ongoing problem understanding the importance, or even the definition, of evidence. As we saw with &#039;evidence&#039; of WMD in Iraq, wishing for it, and claiming you have it, doesn&#039;t actually make it so.

Now, it &lt;em&gt;may&lt;/em&gt; be that the problem is that laws about voter fraud are such that convictions are hard, so cases don&#039;t get brought. But I&#039;ve seen no attempt to prove that to be true, merely attempts to &#039;fix&#039; a problem that exists primarily in the unattributed anecdotes of right-wing political operatives. That, and unreasoning anger from Republicans who, despite their party being overwhelmingly in power, insist that they are being robbed of election successes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely right. It&#8217;s clear that the &#8216;problem&#8217; was not that they didn&#8217;t investigate, but that they didn&#8217;t indict. McKay did look into the allegations, and talked to a bunch of people, and no one, not even local Republican elected officials, had evidence to give him.</p>
<p>The right-wingers have an ongoing problem understanding the importance, or even the definition, of evidence. As we saw with &#8216;evidence&#8217; of WMD in Iraq, wishing for it, and claiming you have it, doesn&#8217;t actually make it so.</p>
<p>Now, it <em>may</em> be that the problem is that laws about voter fraud are such that convictions are hard, so cases don&#8217;t get brought. But I&#8217;ve seen no attempt to prove that to be true, merely attempts to &#8216;fix&#8217; a problem that exists primarily in the unattributed anecdotes of right-wing political operatives. That, and unreasoning anger from Republicans who, despite their party being overwhelmingly in power, insist that they are being robbed of election successes.</p>
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		<title>By: SamFromUtah</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-161582</link>
		<dc:creator>SamFromUtah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2007 04:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1543#comment-161582</guid>
		<description>...and oh yes - this suppression crap has to be what Turdblossom meant by &quot;the&quot; math, hm?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and oh yes &#8211; this suppression crap has to be what Turdblossom meant by &#8220;the&#8221; math, hm?</p>
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		<title>By: SamFromUtah</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/03/15/bingo/comment-page-1/#comment-161577</link>
		<dc:creator>SamFromUtah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2007 04:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=1543#comment-161577</guid>
		<description>Excellent!

I guess it&#039;s time to switch from &quot;b-b-but Clinton!&quot; to &quot;damn liberal media!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent!</p>
<p>I guess it&#8217;s time to switch from &#8220;b-b-but Clinton!&#8221; to &#8220;damn liberal media!&#8221;</p>
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