Comments on: Inconvenient Facts http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/ Exposing the ugly truths about the Bush Administration. Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:24:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1.3 by: John Fembup http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219266 Wed, 23 May 2007 02:24:30 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219266 Live longer. Move to Canada. If they'll have you. Live longer. Move to Canada. If they’ll have you.

]]> by: QrazyQat http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219227 Tue, 22 May 2007 23:04:58 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219227 Yet another thing is on what Chet Scoville said in commnet #6, that the conservatives and the press in Canada have been pushing the dissatisfaction idea for many years now. This is working. Canadians' feeling that health care needs very little changing has dropped a lot since the early 1980s. This would lend support for the idea that there's fire to go with that smoke the rightwing is blowing, but at the same time they report only 20% feeling it needs little change, the rates for satisfaction with the health care they've received is in the high 80% brackets, which suggests that much of the dissatisfaction they do report is based on PR and FUD rather than reality. Yet another thing is on what Chet Scoville said in commnet #6, that the conservatives and the press in Canada have been pushing the dissatisfaction idea for many years now. This is working. Canadians’ feeling that health care needs very little changing has dropped a lot since the early 1980s. This would lend support for the idea that there’s fire to go with that smoke the rightwing is blowing, but at the same time they report only 20% feeling it needs little change, the rates for satisfaction with the health care they’ve received is in the high 80% brackets, which suggests that much of the dissatisfaction they do report is based on PR and FUD rather than reality.

]]> by: QrazyQat http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219225 Tue, 22 May 2007 22:54:59 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219225 Oh, missed this: <i>The numbers I’ve seen on expenses are about 2/3rds though, not 1/2. </i> From the chart on Kevin's blog: US $6102 UK $2546 NZ $2083 Ger $3005 Can $3165 Aus $3876 Each time I've seen numbers they're similar relative to US spending. Also keep in mind that these other systems typically spend well under 10% of their money on administration costs while the US spends over 30% -- 20% simply thrown away (typically into the pockets of insurance companies). Oh, missed this:

The numbers I’ve seen on expenses are about 2/3rds though, not 1/2.

From the chart on Kevin’s blog:
US $6102
UK $2546
NZ $2083
Ger $3005
Can $3165
Aus $3876

Each time I’ve seen numbers they’re similar relative to US spending. Also keep in mind that these other systems typically spend well under 10% of their money on administration costs while the US spends over 30% — 20% simply thrown away (typically into the pockets of insurance companies).

]]> by: QrazyQat http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219188 Tue, 22 May 2007 20:26:30 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219188 Here's links to several studies comparing healthcare in the US and other countries, including Canada. The first link (Guyatt et al.) is specifically just between the USA and Canada. <a href="http://www.openmedicine.ca/article/view/8/1" rel="nofollow">a study</a> <a href="http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/abstract/23/3/89" rel="nofollow">a study</a> <a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_05/011316.php" rel="nofollow">one chart from Kevin Drum's blog</a> Here’s links to several studies comparing healthcare in the US and other countries, including Canada. The first link (Guyatt et al.) is specifically just between the USA and Canada.

a study
a study
one chart from Kevin Drum’s blog

]]> by: Virginia Dutch http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219127 Tue, 22 May 2007 12:49:45 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219127 The right has consistently, and successfully, made use of the anecdotal strategy in badmouthing the universal health systems of other countries like Canada - focussing endlessly on tales of waiting lists for hip replacements or some such. Meanwhile, the daily horrors of the American way of health care go unchronicled. If Moore can bring some of these anti-anecdotes to light, more power to him. (BTW, the snarking in the U.S. press is getting underway. Check out the 5/22 Washington Post piece.) The right has consistently, and successfully, made use of the anecdotal strategy in badmouthing the universal health systems of other countries like Canada - focussing endlessly on tales of waiting lists for hip replacements or some such.

Meanwhile, the daily horrors of the American way of health care go unchronicled. If Moore can bring some of these anti-anecdotes to light, more power to him.

(BTW, the snarking in the U.S. press is getting underway. Check out the 5/22 Washington Post piece.)

]]> by: Ian Welsh http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219126 Tue, 22 May 2007 12:39:45 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-219126 Don't have the time at the moment Maha, but if I were you I'd search for polls on public support of Canadian medicare. I don't ever remember seeing one that didn't show strong majority support for it. It's not perfect, but it's a damn site better than the mess in the states. The numbers I've seen on expenses are about 2/3rds though, not 1/2. Don’t have the time at the moment Maha, but if I were you I’d search for polls on public support of Canadian medicare. I don’t ever remember seeing one that didn’t show strong majority support for it. It’s not perfect, but it’s a damn site better than the mess in the states.

The numbers I’ve seen on expenses are about 2/3rds though, not 1/2.

]]> by: QrazyQat http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-218973 Mon, 21 May 2007 23:12:47 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-218973 Here's the thing about Canadian health care (and I have family experience with it which was incredibly positive which won't even enter into this): Canadians spend half per capita what Americans spend (just like in the UK, France, and Germany -- France and Germany sound like the systems to emulate, BTW). And Canadians get everybody covered for that price, unlike Americans. Okay, got that? Those are just facts, simple facts; got 'em? Okay. Here's the deal. The problems with the Canadian system, which studies show gives as good or better care on most aspects of health care compared to the USA, do you think that possibly, just possibly, they would all be solved by doubling the amount they spend on health care? Doubling it! That would make Canadian health care as expensive as US health care, yet would cover everyone (unlike US health care) and it's crazy to imagine that doubling what they spend couldn't solve virtually every single niggling little problem they have. And those studies show that they have no more, and often less, problem than in the USA. Here’s the thing about Canadian health care (and I have family experience with it which was incredibly positive which won’t even enter into this): Canadians spend half per capita what Americans spend (just like in the UK, France, and Germany — France and Germany sound like the systems to emulate, BTW). And Canadians get everybody covered for that price, unlike Americans.

Okay, got that? Those are just facts, simple facts; got ‘em? Okay.

Here’s the deal. The problems with the Canadian system, which studies show gives as good or better care on most aspects of health care compared to the USA, do you think that possibly, just possibly, they would all be solved by doubling the amount they spend on health care?

Doubling it! That would make Canadian health care as expensive as US health care, yet would cover everyone (unlike US health care) and it’s crazy to imagine that doubling what they spend couldn’t solve virtually every single niggling little problem they have.

And those studies show that they have no more, and often less, problem than in the USA.

]]> by: Chet Scoville http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-218949 Mon, 21 May 2007 22:02:32 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-218949 Thing is, Canadian journalists over the past decade or so have gotten used to describing Medicare in more or less the same way that American journalists have gotten used to describing Social Security: i.e., the most successful and popular public program in the country must be terribly broken, must have something fatally wrong with it, must must must be on the verge of collapse. It's really not surprising that Moore ran into this attitude, but it doesn't have much to do with reality, either. It's just more journalistic group-think. Thing is, Canadian journalists over the past decade or so have gotten used to describing Medicare in more or less the same way that American journalists have gotten used to describing Social Security: i.e., the most successful and popular public program in the country must be terribly broken, must have something fatally wrong with it, must must must be on the verge of collapse. It’s really not surprising that Moore ran into this attitude, but it doesn’t have much to do with reality, either. It’s just more journalistic group-think.

]]> by: moonbat http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-218878 Mon, 21 May 2007 18:11:43 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-218878 Sneak peek at "Sicko", <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2007/5/21/11576/5857/1#c1" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Sneak peek at “Sicko”, here.

]]> by: moonbat http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-218876 Mon, 21 May 2007 17:57:41 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/21/inconvenient-facts/#comment-218876 It's too early to say this, because Sicko hasn't even opened yet, and I haven't seen it, but judging from the early criticism, I wish Moore had focused on the best socialized system, which many regard as France's and not Canada's. The legitimate criticisms of the Canadian system combined with Moore's rosy view don't help his argument or the progressive cause. Was chatting with an orthopedist a few days ago, who said that health care will be the main issue in the 2008 election. His concern was something you echoed in an earlier thread, about whether we'll see an overhaul or simply a quick fix. It’s too early to say this, because Sicko hasn’t even opened yet, and I haven’t seen it, but judging from the early criticism, I wish Moore had focused on the best socialized system, which many regard as France’s and not Canada’s. The legitimate criticisms of the Canadian system combined with Moore’s rosy view don’t help his argument or the progressive cause.

Was chatting with an orthopedist a few days ago, who said that health care will be the main issue in the 2008 election. His concern was something you echoed in an earlier thread, about whether we’ll see an overhaul or simply a quick fix.

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