Comments on: The Wisdom of Doubt, Part III http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/ Exposing the ugly truths about the Bush Administration. Sun, 12 Oct 2008 06:35:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1.3 by: The Mahablog » Faith Based Larceny http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-276934 Sun, 02 Sep 2007 03:51:09 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-276934 [...] You might remember that the last surgeon general, Richard H. Carmona, told Congress that the White House kept him on a leash and would not allow him to speak or issue reports on stem cells, emergency contraception, sex education, or prison, mental and global health issues. I guess the Bushies recognized that Holsinger is a man who won’t let integrity get in the way of his job. And what was that about people needing religion to be moral? Spotlight [...] […] You might remember that the last surgeon general, Richard H. Carmona, told Congress that the White House kept him on a leash and would not allow him to speak or issue reports on stem cells, emergency contraception, sex education, or prison, mental and global health issues. I guess the Bushies recognized that Holsinger is a man who won’t let integrity get in the way of his job. And what was that about people needing religion to be moral? Spotlight […]

]]> by: The Mahablog » The Wisdom of Doubt: The Series http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-269069 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:35:22 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-269069 [...] Part III: Why moral absolutists aren’t moral. [...] […] Part III: Why moral absolutists aren’t moral. […]

]]> by: The Mahablog » The Wisdom of Doubt, Part IV http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-256494 Sun, 01 Jul 2007 12:09:22 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-256494 [...] Hitchens fancies himself to be an openminded man of logic and reason, but his intellectual dishonesty reveals him to be quite the opposite. In the last episode of The Wisdom of Doubt I argued that religion gets screwy when people use it to bullshit themselves about themselves. Here we see an atheist bullshitting himself about himself, to similar results. [...] […] Hitchens fancies himself to be an openminded man of logic and reason, but his intellectual dishonesty reveals him to be quite the opposite. In the last episode of The Wisdom of Doubt I argued that religion gets screwy when people use it to bullshit themselves about themselves. Here we see an atheist bullshitting himself about himself, to similar results. […]

]]> by: The Mahablog » See Sicko Again http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-256212 Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:49:23 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-256212 [...] First, one of the things I hope to bring out in the ongoing Wisdom of Doubt series is to establish that religion is something other than “fanatical belief in things that demonstrably are not true.” But let’s put that aside for now. The real fantasy is, of course, that the United States has The Best Health Care in the World. It does not. It does not by any empirical measure. The only way one could possibly still believe that the United States has The Best Health Care in the World is if one is utterly ignorant of the health care systems here and abroad. [...] […] First, one of the things I hope to bring out in the ongoing Wisdom of Doubt series is to establish that religion is something other than “fanatical belief in things that demonstrably are not true.” But let’s put that aside for now. The real fantasy is, of course, that the United States has The Best Health Care in the World. It does not. It does not by any empirical measure. The only way one could possibly still believe that the United States has The Best Health Care in the World is if one is utterly ignorant of the health care systems here and abroad. […]

]]> by: Chris http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-252663 Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:07:26 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-252663 Oops! Schlesinger not Greenwald. My mistake! Oops! Schlesinger not Greenwald. My mistake!

]]> by: Chris http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-252657 Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:04:10 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-252657 Hmmm... you have a lively crowd here, so I'm almost reluctant to wade in. But I thought I'd wave and say "hi, I'm another blog-author with an interest in addressing religious issues rather than brushing them under the carpet, and I'm delighted to find you and add you to my reader." A few quick comments in respect of this piece... Firstly, it is certainly the case that we do not need religion in order to be good, but religion remains the best tool we have for maintaining our concepts of morality. (Would a secular system with the same role not become a form of religion...?) Any attempt to boil this issue down to "we don't need religion for morality, so we don't need religion" or its converse, is both naive and simplistic, as you correctly intimate. You note: "Jesus actually said very little about what people should believe. Mostly he talked about what they should do." I've been making this point a lot; I don't actually say it in <a href="http://onlyagame.typepad.com/only_a_game/2007/05/the_golden_rule.html" rel="nofollow">this piece</a> (hope you can accept html in comments!) but it's implied. As for fundamentalisms and religions, let us not forget that nonreligions (secular ideologies) also fall prey. I frequently cite the Tamil Tigers (a Marxist-Leninist group) as they apparently employ more suicide bombers than any other group, which is a chilling indicator that the problems are not with religion, per se, but with humanity's relationship to organised ideology, whether religious or otherwise. I really resonate with Greenwald's line "There is no greater human presumption than to read the mind of the Almighty" - I will use this! It compares favourably to my catchphrase in respect of religious pluralism: No-one Understands The Mind Of God (NUTMOG). :D Right, I have tarried long enough... Please accept my sincere best wishes, and keep up the good work! Chris. Hmmm… you have a lively crowd here, so I’m almost reluctant to wade in. But I thought I’d wave and say “hi, I’m another blog-author with an interest in addressing religious issues rather than brushing them under the carpet, and I’m delighted to find you and add you to my reader.”

A few quick comments in respect of this piece…

Firstly, it is certainly the case that we do not need religion in order to be good, but religion remains the best tool we have for maintaining our concepts of morality. (Would a secular system with the same role not become a form of religion…?) Any attempt to boil this issue down to “we don’t need religion for morality, so we don’t need religion” or its converse, is both naive and simplistic, as you correctly intimate.

You note:

“Jesus actually said very little about what people should believe. Mostly he talked about what they should do.”

I’ve been making this point a lot; I don’t actually say it in this piece (hope you can accept html in comments!) but it’s implied.

As for fundamentalisms and religions, let us not forget that nonreligions (secular ideologies) also fall prey. I frequently cite the Tamil Tigers (a Marxist-Leninist group) as they apparently employ more suicide bombers than any other group, which is a chilling indicator that the problems are not with religion, per se, but with humanity’s relationship to organised ideology, whether religious or otherwise.

I really resonate with Greenwald’s line “There is no greater human presumption than to read the mind of the Almighty” - I will use this! It compares favourably to my catchphrase in respect of religious pluralism: No-one Understands The Mind Of God (NUTMOG). :D

Right, I have tarried long enough… Please accept my sincere best wishes, and keep up the good work!

Chris.

]]> by: The Mahablog » No Mistake http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-250383 Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:25:26 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-250383 [...] And, of course, if you&#8217;ve been following the &#8220;Wisdom of Doubt&#8221; series, you know I think the real evil that men (and women) do comes not from a lack of morality or religion, but from our capacity to bullshit ourselves about ourselves. People who cannot honestly examine themselves and reflect deeply on their own desires and motives are oh, so easily deceived and seduced by evil. [...] […] And, of course, if you’ve been following the “Wisdom of Doubt” series, you know I think the real evil that men (and women) do comes not from a lack of morality or religion, but from our capacity to bullshit ourselves about ourselves. People who cannot honestly examine themselves and reflect deeply on their own desires and motives are oh, so easily deceived and seduced by evil. […]

]]> by: priscianus jr http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-249215 Mon, 25 Jun 2007 04:38:24 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-249215 Maha, You explain so well the huge difference between people bullshitting themselves about God -- which is so, so common -- and the idea that God doesn't exist or that religion, as such, is bad. Very few in the lefty blogosphere come anywhere near such discernment. Maha,
You explain so well the huge difference between people bullshitting themselves about God — which is so, so common — and the idea that God doesn’t exist or that religion, as such, is bad. Very few in the lefty blogosphere come anywhere near such discernment.

]]> by: Phil Vinson http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-249050 Mon, 25 Jun 2007 02:58:43 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-249050 Wonderful post, Barbara, from another old Buddhist who fled Christianity for many of the same reasons you did. Wonderful post, Barbara, from another old Buddhist who fled Christianity for many of the same reasons you did.

]]> by: Pat Pattillo http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-248849 Mon, 25 Jun 2007 00:45:43 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/24/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-iii/#comment-248849 As for your closing paragraph, particularly: "I want to note here that if I seem particularly hard on Christianity, it’s because I used to be Christian and I understand (I think) Christianity intimately." I do think that it adequately disposes of the often leveled charges of America-hating and the hackneyed "they're just as bad or worse" talking point, both of which deny accountability due to extenuating circumstance. What was the old cliche? ...accept the things I cannot change, have courage to change the things I can and have the wisdom to know the difference... Introspection, self-examination, and humility are not characteristics that immediately come to mind when we consider the religiosity disproportionately popularized by the MSM or George Bush (whose own Methodist church encouragingly opposes the association of Southern Methodist University with his presidential library) for that matter. As for your closing paragraph, particularly:

“I want to note here that if I seem particularly hard on Christianity, it’s because I used to be Christian and I understand (I think) Christianity intimately.”

I do think that it adequately disposes of the often leveled charges of America-hating and the hackneyed “they’re just as bad or worse” talking point, both of which deny accountability due to extenuating circumstance.

What was the old cliche? …accept the things I cannot change, have courage to change the things I can and have the wisdom to know the difference…

Introspection, self-examination, and humility are not characteristics that immediately come to mind when we consider the religiosity disproportionately popularized by the MSM or George Bush (whose own Methodist church encouragingly opposes the association of Southern Methodist University with his presidential library) for that matter.

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