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	<title>Comments on: See Sicko</title>
	<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/</link>
	<description>Exposing the ugly truths about the Bush Administration.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: delta</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-257475</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-257475</guid>
					<description>&quot;Sicko&quot; is not shown anywhere in our state.  Had to drive 250 miles to see the movie which was being shown at only 1 theater in a large city.  My question is:  What or who determines whether a film will be available in an area?  What is the criteria?  Do politics enter in?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Sicko&#8221; is not shown anywhere in our state.  Had to drive 250 miles to see the movie which was being shown at only 1 theater in a large city.  My question is:  What or who determines whether a film will be available in an area?  What is the criteria?  Do politics enter in?
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		<title>by: UpstairsNeighbour</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256554</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jul 2007 17:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256554</guid>
					<description>Banking... maybe banking is a better metaphor for health care provision than either insurance or strict &quot;payment&quot; (i.e. the populist conservative retort &quot;Why should I 'pay' for your drug rehab?&quot;).

It's not a perfect metaphor - but an interesting one.  Banks take in money and lend out money, keeping enough in the pot for the predicted cash flow while having the rest of out in the community working.  I'm thinking Jimmy Stewart here, in the plea he makes during the bank run in &quot;It's a Wonderful Life&quot;...

A national health care system is actually kind of like a national health bank.  Taxpayers can be paying into it or they can borrow its resources by consuming services.  Rather than using that value to build wealth, they build health.  Maintaining health lets them work more productively and contribute through taxes back to the system.  Rather than just their own wealth or assets increasing, the overall economy grows...

Ack!  I don't know!!  But I do like the idea of that Jimmy Stewart clip used in the argument for universal health care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Banking&#8230; maybe banking is a better metaphor for health care provision than either insurance or strict &#8220;payment&#8221; (i.e. the populist conservative retort &#8220;Why should I &#8216;pay&#8217; for your drug rehab?&#8221;).</p>
	<p>It&#8217;s not a perfect metaphor - but an interesting one.  Banks take in money and lend out money, keeping enough in the pot for the predicted cash flow while having the rest of out in the community working.  I&#8217;m thinking Jimmy Stewart here, in the plea he makes during the bank run in &#8220;It&#8217;s a Wonderful Life&#8221;&#8230;</p>
	<p>A national health care system is actually kind of like a national health bank.  Taxpayers can be paying into it or they can borrow its resources by consuming services.  Rather than using that value to build wealth, they build health.  Maintaining health lets them work more productively and contribute through taxes back to the system.  Rather than just their own wealth or assets increasing, the overall economy grows&#8230;</p>
	<p>Ack!  I don&#8217;t know!!  But I do like the idea of that Jimmy Stewart clip used in the argument for universal health care.
</p>
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		<title>by: A Canadian Reader</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256533</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256533</guid>
					<description>OMG, I actually went to Sheila's website. She's braindead or is infected with a major virus that stops her from seeing anything resembling reality.

Reading her post (mostly written in fact by another zombie named Valenti) was a sickening experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>OMG, I actually went to Sheila&#8217;s website. She&#8217;s braindead or is infected with a major virus that stops her from seeing anything resembling reality.</p>
	<p>Reading her post (mostly written in fact by another zombie named Valenti) was a sickening experience.
</p>
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		<title>by: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256296</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:53:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256296</guid>
					<description>Upstairs Neighbor -- thank you for your comments and links. They are very useful.

Awhile back I wrote a couple of posts on the U.S. &quot;system&quot; called &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/11/demand-supply/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Demand Supply&lt;/a&gt;&quot; and &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/14/unhealthy-care/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Unhealthy Care,&lt;/a&gt;&quot; in which I argued that the &quot;system&quot; is skewed toward creating profitable health care products and providing boutique services to people with means to pay for them, but our capacity to provide basic health care -- including hospital emergency rooms -- is being allowed to rot because they are not profitable.

It's so screwed up now that even if we all woke up tomorrow morning and found that the Good Health Care Fairy had brought us a single payer system, it will take years before the capacity to provide essential services catches up to demand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Upstairs Neighbor &#8212; thank you for your comments and links. They are very useful.</p>
	<p>Awhile back I wrote a couple of posts on the U.S. &#8220;system&#8221; called &#8220;<a href="http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/11/demand-supply/" rel="nofollow">Demand Supply</a>&#8221; and &#8220;<a href="http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/14/unhealthy-care/" rel="nofollow">Unhealthy Care,</a>&#8221; in which I argued that the &#8220;system&#8221; is skewed toward creating profitable health care products and providing boutique services to people with means to pay for them, but our capacity to provide basic health care &#8212; including hospital emergency rooms &#8212; is being allowed to rot because they are not profitable.</p>
	<p>It&#8217;s so screwed up now that even if we all woke up tomorrow morning and found that the Good Health Care Fairy had brought us a single payer system, it will take years before the capacity to provide essential services catches up to demand.
</p>
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		<title>by: UpstairsNeighbour</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256294</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:31:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256294</guid>
					<description>Actually, I just read a really good point at the blog below:

http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/348604.html?thread=4754876#t4754876
-----------------------------------
joxn wrote: My point is this, of course: the basic healthcare that everyone needs to stay alive and healthy is not something which an insurance policy is designed to handle. Insurance policies are for rare but statistically definable events. But basic healthcare is not rare -- although it is statistically definable: everyone will have to have it, and in the case of preventive care, they'll have to use it for it to be beneficial.
----------------------------

That would mean that risk-pooling may not be the right way to think of health provision at all - maybe pure reciprocal altruism - an anathema to those who hate the notion that human beings depend on each other (or should be able to...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually, I just read a really good point at the blog below:</p>
	<p><a href='http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/348604.html?thread=4754876#t4754876' rel='nofollow'>http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/348604.html?thread=4754876#t4754876</a><br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
joxn wrote: My point is this, of course: the basic healthcare that everyone needs to stay alive and healthy is not something which an insurance policy is designed to handle. Insurance policies are for rare but statistically definable events. But basic healthcare is not rare &#8212; although it is statistically definable: everyone will have to have it, and in the case of preventive care, they&#8217;ll have to use it for it to be beneficial.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
	<p>That would mean that risk-pooling may not be the right way to think of health provision at all - maybe pure reciprocal altruism - an anathema to those who hate the notion that human beings depend on each other (or should be able to&#8230;)
</p>
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		<title>by: UpstairsNeighbour</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256292</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256292</guid>
					<description>I wish an economist would breeze by this blog, at least to provide us some of the terminology around these ideas, even if she/he disagreed with the points...  Moore is pointing out that when you are sick, it is a pure cost or pure loss...  there is no way to make that loss of productivity and consumptions of medical resources into a gain.  So any profit-based health insurance company can only ever hold and attract investment dollars by minimizing those costs/losses.  Ideally this would be by providing the services most efficiently, but the incentives are strong to actually ratchet back the level of service...  especially because if all of the competitors reduce their service to the same crappy level, buyers are still forced to buy - so that compulsion to buy must also have a name in economics, and it must mess up the whole idea of an efficient market...

But this is all an argument *within* capitalism.  Except for pure libertarians, most people feel that there is *some* role for governments in capitalist economies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I wish an economist would breeze by this blog, at least to provide us some of the terminology around these ideas, even if she/he disagreed with the points&#8230;  Moore is pointing out that when you are sick, it is a pure cost or pure loss&#8230;  there is no way to make that loss of productivity and consumptions of medical resources into a gain.  So any profit-based health insurance company can only ever hold and attract investment dollars by minimizing those costs/losses.  Ideally this would be by providing the services most efficiently, but the incentives are strong to actually ratchet back the level of service&#8230;  especially because if all of the competitors reduce their service to the same crappy level, buyers are still forced to buy - so that compulsion to buy must also have a name in economics, and it must mess up the whole idea of an efficient market&#8230;</p>
	<p>But this is all an argument *within* capitalism.  Except for pure libertarians, most people feel that there is *some* role for governments in capitalist economies.
</p>
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		<title>by: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256238</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256238</guid>
					<description>Mishu -- your approval of the L.A. Times article shows you don't get it. This argument is not about capitalism versus socialism; it's about what works in the real world and what doesn't. Capitalism and free enterprise are great at some things but not everything. As Moore says, we have &quot;socialized&quot; police and fire protection, so what's the deal with health care?

BTW, your next comment (deleted) landed you back in the twit filter. Sorry. I clear it out every six months or so and start over, so check back around Christmastime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mishu &#8212; your approval of the L.A. Times article shows you don&#8217;t get it. This argument is not about capitalism versus socialism; it&#8217;s about what works in the real world and what doesn&#8217;t. Capitalism and free enterprise are great at some things but not everything. As Moore says, we have &#8220;socialized&#8221; police and fire protection, so what&#8217;s the deal with health care?</p>
	<p>BTW, your next comment (deleted) landed you back in the twit filter. Sorry. I clear it out every six months or so and start over, so check back around Christmastime.
</p>
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		<title>by: mishu</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256235</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256235</guid>
					<description>The LA Times article busts open moore's hypocrisy. He waxes poetic on how his profits enable his freedom to deliver what he believes is a better product however private insurance companies profits are, of course, evil. Tyranny of &quot;artists&quot; in a nutshell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The LA Times article busts open moore&#8217;s hypocrisy. He waxes poetic on how his profits enable his freedom to deliver what he believes is a better product however private insurance companies profits are, of course, evil. Tyranny of &#8220;artists&#8221; in a nutshell.
</p>
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		<title>by: UpstairsNeighbour</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256231</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256231</guid>
					<description>Another thought, competition in health insurance might be a good thing, but isn't there something skewed about a market where the the cost of exit is death?  Maybe some economist reading this can help out, but 'pay or die' isn't a choice, it's extortion, and so the suppliers only have to be about as crappy as all of the others, knowing you have to pick one of them.

With a hybrid system - universal public coverage with an opt-out provision, private insurance companies would have to offer *real* value, in order to lure people away from the public system.  That would create the efficiencies of a market, I think...

In other words, to make the market competitive (non-economist struggling with concepts here), introducing a live-option alternative to *all* private coverage might get around the contradiction Michael Moore describes between profit and the provision of care...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Another thought, competition in health insurance might be a good thing, but isn&#8217;t there something skewed about a market where the the cost of exit is death?  Maybe some economist reading this can help out, but &#8216;pay or die&#8217; isn&#8217;t a choice, it&#8217;s extortion, and so the suppliers only have to be about as crappy as all of the others, knowing you have to pick one of them.</p>
	<p>With a hybrid system - universal public coverage with an opt-out provision, private insurance companies would have to offer *real* value, in order to lure people away from the public system.  That would create the efficiencies of a market, I think&#8230;</p>
	<p>In other words, to make the market competitive (non-economist struggling with concepts here), introducing a live-option alternative to *all* private coverage might get around the contradiction Michael Moore describes between profit and the provision of care&#8230;
</p>
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		<title>by: UpstairsNeighbour</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256227</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:02:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/06/29/see-sicko/#comment-256227</guid>
					<description>Sheila - thanks, first of all, for a great thread-starter. I'm Canadian, I've lived in the Czech Republic and South Korea, and have gotten great care without private insurance anywhere I have lived.  It does come out of taxes, but I feel no real deprivation in terms of my purchasing power (actually got a $2500 tax refund this year, and our federal government has been running surpluses more than deficits lately).

Most people in the industrialized world can relax in the awareness that the government provides the basic conditions for a good society to flourish, including roads, sewage systems, military and police protection, courts of law, and a well-educated, healthy workforce.  If universal health care isn't a right, it certainly is economically smart.  It provides a baseline for an active society.

It rocks, basically.  It's *way* worth paying higher taxes.  People think of the cost of taxes imposed without realizing how they would no longer have to carry their own healthcare costs.  It's not a matter of dependency, its mutual aid or reciprocal altruism.  The strong support the weak, knowing that no one is strong forever.

You should do some math, if you think 4 out of 5 Americans being satisfied with their healthcare is insignificant.  Also, how many of those 4 simply (before Sicko) had no sense of the alternatives?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sheila - thanks, first of all, for a great thread-starter. I&#8217;m Canadian, I&#8217;ve lived in the Czech Republic and South Korea, and have gotten great care without private insurance anywhere I have lived.  It does come out of taxes, but I feel no real deprivation in terms of my purchasing power (actually got a $2500 tax refund this year, and our federal government has been running surpluses more than deficits lately).</p>
	<p>Most people in the industrialized world can relax in the awareness that the government provides the basic conditions for a good society to flourish, including roads, sewage systems, military and police protection, courts of law, and a well-educated, healthy workforce.  If universal health care isn&#8217;t a right, it certainly is economically smart.  It provides a baseline for an active society.</p>
	<p>It rocks, basically.  It&#8217;s *way* worth paying higher taxes.  People think of the cost of taxes imposed without realizing how they would no longer have to carry their own healthcare costs.  It&#8217;s not a matter of dependency, its mutual aid or reciprocal altruism.  The strong support the weak, knowing that no one is strong forever.</p>
	<p>You should do some math, if you think 4 out of 5 Americans being satisfied with their healthcare is insignificant.  Also, how many of those 4 simply (before Sicko) had no sense of the alternatives?
</p>
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