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	<title>Comments on: The Wisdom of Doubt, Part XI</title>
	<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/</link>
	<description>Exposing the ugly truths about the Bush Administration.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; Arrogance in Action</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-324166</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-324166</guid>
					<description>[...] I wrote about the limitations of language in the Wisdom of Doubt series, but the Paulson article has inspired me to revisit the topic and take it a little further. And to do that I&amp;#8217;m going to go out on a limb and discuss Chao Chou&amp;#8217;s Dog, which is the first koan of the Mumonkon. (Please note that I&amp;#8217;m not a Zen teacher, just a rather slow student, and will not provide anything approximating the answer.) Rinzai Zen students spend years meditating on this koan; it&amp;#8217;s said that if you can resolve it, the other 800 or so koans aren&amp;#8217;t so hard. Here is the case: A monk asked Master Chao Chou, &amp;#8220;Does a dog have Buddha nature?&amp;#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] I wrote about the limitations of language in the Wisdom of Doubt series, but the Paulson article has inspired me to revisit the topic and take it a little further. And to do that I&#8217;m going to go out on a limb and discuss Chao Chou&#8217;s Dog, which is the first koan of the Mumonkon. (Please note that I&#8217;m not a Zen teacher, just a rather slow student, and will not provide anything approximating the answer.) Rinzai Zen students spend years meditating on this koan; it&#8217;s said that if you can resolve it, the other 800 or so koans aren&#8217;t so hard. Here is the case: A monk asked Master Chao Chou, &#8220;Does a dog have Buddha nature?&#8221; [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Peter Gaffney</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-277001</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-277001</guid>
					<description>But how does one go about transcending one's preference for Zen over fundamentalist Christianity?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But how does one go about transcending one&#8217;s preference for Zen over fundamentalist Christianity?
</p>
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		<title>by: Larkspur</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-269309</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 02:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-269309</guid>
					<description>Are there any LDS/Mormons reading this?  Because this isn't my religion, either by upbringing or by choice, but my impression has been that outsiders are inclined to assume that to be a Mormon, you have to accept and believe in the literal truth of the Book of Mormon.  But maybe this isn't true.  Maybe you can be a Mormon and acknowledge the tenets without depending on them to be literally true.  I mean, non-Mormons have a tendency to place Mormonism into (or very close to) the cult category.  Surely fundamentalist Mormons (self-defined) have cult-like beliefs.  But can you believe in the Church of LDS &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; allegory or simile?

(I am prompted to curiosity not by Mitt Romney, but my former neighbors - because I love them - and by Steve Young, because he's really smart and the best quarterback ever. Although I absolutely do not believe in American tackle football, oh noes.)

Is this a bad question?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Are there any LDS/Mormons reading this?  Because this isn&#8217;t my religion, either by upbringing or by choice, but my impression has been that outsiders are inclined to assume that to be a Mormon, you have to accept and believe in the literal truth of the Book of Mormon.  But maybe this isn&#8217;t true.  Maybe you can be a Mormon and acknowledge the tenets without depending on them to be literally true.  I mean, non-Mormons have a tendency to place Mormonism into (or very close to) the cult category.  Surely fundamentalist Mormons (self-defined) have cult-like beliefs.  But can you believe in the Church of LDS <i>and</i> allegory or simile?</p>
	<p>(I am prompted to curiosity not by Mitt Romney, but my former neighbors - because I love them - and by Steve Young, because he&#8217;s really smart and the best quarterback ever. Although I absolutely do not believe in American tackle football, oh noes.)</p>
	<p>Is this a bad question?
</p>
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; The Wisdom of Doubt: The Series</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-269077</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-269077</guid>
					<description>[...] Part XI: Scripture doesn&amp;#8217;t have to be literal to be true. . In fact, literal interpretation of scripture wrings the truth out of it. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] Part XI: Scripture doesn&#8217;t have to be literal to be true. . In fact, literal interpretation of scripture wrings the truth out of it. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; The Wisdom of Doubt, Part XII</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-268097</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-268097</guid>
					<description>[...] I wrote in the last Wisdom of Doubt post that some things can&amp;#8217;t be explained with words, and I&amp;#8217;m about to plunge into explaining something with words that can&amp;#8217;t be explained with words. But let&amp;#8217;s start with words. The American Heritage online dictionary gives these two definitions of faith &amp;#8211; 1. Mental acceptance of the truth or actuality of something: belief, credence, credit. See OPINION. 2. Absolute certainty in the trustworthiness of another: belief, confidence, dependence, reliance, trust. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] I wrote in the last Wisdom of Doubt post that some things can&#8217;t be explained with words, and I&#8217;m about to plunge into explaining something with words that can&#8217;t be explained with words. But let&#8217;s start with words. The American Heritage online dictionary gives these two definitions of faith &#8211; 1. Mental acceptance of the truth or actuality of something: belief, credence, credit. See OPINION. 2. Absolute certainty in the trustworthiness of another: belief, confidence, dependence, reliance, trust. [&#8230;]
</p>
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		<title>by: BPx3</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-267209</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-267209</guid>
					<description>@23, &quot;I hope you won’t feel insulted.&quot;

Of course not.  To the contrary, I appreciate your willingness to continue your commentary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@23, &#8220;I hope you won’t feel insulted.&#8221;</p>
	<p>Of course not.  To the contrary, I appreciate your willingness to continue your commentary.
</p>
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		<title>by: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-267196</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-267196</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;ultimate Samadhi, or return to a Garden of Eden consciousness, that would leave him unable to actively participate in what we call life on Earth.&lt;/i&gt;

I have a terrible tendency to over-intellectualize everything, which is my biggest hindrance as a Zen student. I could give you reasonably accurate explanations of many of the koans, for example, but that's not the same thing as resolving them. So when I say you are over-intellectualizing, I hope you won't feel insulted. Your questions are good ones, but they are not questions that can be resolved by intellect.

First, you are misunderstanding how the enlightenment thing works. Even the most highly realized people still participate in what we call life on earth as long as they're alive. Even the historical Buddha, so the stories go, lived and talked and ate and blew his nose and crapped for several years after he attained Buddhahood. The notion that &quot;enlightened&quot; people live in some perpetually blissed-out state and are no longer part of this world is, um, fanciful.

Samadhi is not enlightenment. Samadhi isn't the goal, but the means. Samadhi enables people to break out of their conceptual boxes to experience themselves directly and intimately. After samadhi it becomes possible to perceive oneself and the world in a different way, which makes it useful. But, as you say, sometimes you've got to attend to other things, like changing your socks. 

&quot;Enlightenment&quot; is not a quality one can possess. It is who you are. It is who you are &lt;i&gt;right now&lt;/i&gt;. But believing that enlightenment is who you are is pointless. Having an intellectual understanding of the Buddhist Theory of Being is worthless. This is a matter that must be directly experienced so that it becomes the reality you live in. Then it is no longer a &quot;belief&quot; or a &quot;concept.&quot; It's as real to you as the hand at the end of your arm. It is also, so I'm told, as ordinary as having a hand at the end of your arm. 

The &quot;attachment&quot; thing trips a lot of people up, because they interpret it to mean that realized beings can't form relationships. Not so. The point may be easier to understand if you substitute &quot;clinging&quot; for &quot;attachment.&quot; Don't cling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>ultimate Samadhi, or return to a Garden of Eden consciousness, that would leave him unable to actively participate in what we call life on Earth.</i></p>
	<p>I have a terrible tendency to over-intellectualize everything, which is my biggest hindrance as a Zen student. I could give you reasonably accurate explanations of many of the koans, for example, but that&#8217;s not the same thing as resolving them. So when I say you are over-intellectualizing, I hope you won&#8217;t feel insulted. Your questions are good ones, but they are not questions that can be resolved by intellect.</p>
	<p>First, you are misunderstanding how the enlightenment thing works. Even the most highly realized people still participate in what we call life on earth as long as they&#8217;re alive. Even the historical Buddha, so the stories go, lived and talked and ate and blew his nose and crapped for several years after he attained Buddhahood. The notion that &#8220;enlightened&#8221; people live in some perpetually blissed-out state and are no longer part of this world is, um, fanciful.</p>
	<p>Samadhi is not enlightenment. Samadhi isn&#8217;t the goal, but the means. Samadhi enables people to break out of their conceptual boxes to experience themselves directly and intimately. After samadhi it becomes possible to perceive oneself and the world in a different way, which makes it useful. But, as you say, sometimes you&#8217;ve got to attend to other things, like changing your socks. </p>
	<p>&#8220;Enlightenment&#8221; is not a quality one can possess. It is who you are. It is who you are <i>right now</i>. But believing that enlightenment is who you are is pointless. Having an intellectual understanding of the Buddhist Theory of Being is worthless. This is a matter that must be directly experienced so that it becomes the reality you live in. Then it is no longer a &#8220;belief&#8221; or a &#8220;concept.&#8221; It&#8217;s as real to you as the hand at the end of your arm. It is also, so I&#8217;m told, as ordinary as having a hand at the end of your arm. </p>
	<p>The &#8220;attachment&#8221; thing trips a lot of people up, because they interpret it to mean that realized beings can&#8217;t form relationships. Not so. The point may be easier to understand if you substitute &#8220;clinging&#8221; for &#8220;attachment.&#8221; Don&#8217;t cling.
</p>
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		<title>by: BPx3</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-267189</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-267189</guid>
					<description>@21

Thanks for the links in both of your comments.  Interesting reading.  It will take some time to get through it all.  

If I understand correctly, you're highlighting the point that any attachment to, and reliance on, written descriptions and dogma may prevent us from having the direct personal experience of ultimate reality that should be our goal.  I accept that.  Have no quarrel with it.  My point was that the tenzo may not have been ready to experience the type of ultimate Samadhi, or return to a Garden of Eden consciousness, that would leave him unable to actively participate in what we call life on Earth.  An ancient master isolated in a cave may very well achieve some form of perpetual intimacy of Samadhi, but he, at least in my view, would not be an active participant in the drama of human life.  At least as long as he remains isolated in a cave.  (Also, after reading this story, I would want to ask the ancient master if he might have become a little too attached to the concept of non-attachment).   

The reason I raise my point is your citation to the Hsin Hsin Ming, and the assertion that, “To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind.”  Well, if so, I think it’s a necessary and noble disease of the mind.  My tentative conclusion (and all my conclusions are tentative) is that even when we realize a higher level of consciousness, our active and loving participation in what we call the “real world” requires us to continue to function at a lower level of consciousness as well.  In other words, even though some part of us may come to “realize” the ultimate oneness of all that is and that life on Earth is an illusory experience, we are required to treat it as if it were &quot;real.&quot;  Often, this requires us to make judgments, form opinions, and form attachments.  If we don't do these things, wouldn't we be like an actor in a play who decides to step out of character every five minutes in order to remind the members of the audience that they shouldn't form any attachments to any of the characters because the play is just an illusion and not real?    

My apologies for rambling, but you’ve raised such interesting issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@21</p>
	<p>Thanks for the links in both of your comments.  Interesting reading.  It will take some time to get through it all.  </p>
	<p>If I understand correctly, you&#8217;re highlighting the point that any attachment to, and reliance on, written descriptions and dogma may prevent us from having the direct personal experience of ultimate reality that should be our goal.  I accept that.  Have no quarrel with it.  My point was that the tenzo may not have been ready to experience the type of ultimate Samadhi, or return to a Garden of Eden consciousness, that would leave him unable to actively participate in what we call life on Earth.  An ancient master isolated in a cave may very well achieve some form of perpetual intimacy of Samadhi, but he, at least in my view, would not be an active participant in the drama of human life.  At least as long as he remains isolated in a cave.  (Also, after reading this story, I would want to ask the ancient master if he might have become a little too attached to the concept of non-attachment).   </p>
	<p>The reason I raise my point is your citation to the Hsin Hsin Ming, and the assertion that, “To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind.”  Well, if so, I think it’s a necessary and noble disease of the mind.  My tentative conclusion (and all my conclusions are tentative) is that even when we realize a higher level of consciousness, our active and loving participation in what we call the “real world” requires us to continue to function at a lower level of consciousness as well.  In other words, even though some part of us may come to “realize” the ultimate oneness of all that is and that life on Earth is an illusory experience, we are required to treat it as if it were &#8220;real.&#8221;  Often, this requires us to make judgments, form opinions, and form attachments.  If we don&#8217;t do these things, wouldn&#8217;t we be like an actor in a play who decides to step out of character every five minutes in order to remind the members of the audience that they shouldn&#8217;t form any attachments to any of the characters because the play is just an illusion and not real?    </p>
	<p>My apologies for rambling, but you’ve raised such interesting issues.
</p>
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		<title>by: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-267145</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-267145</guid>
					<description>BPx3 -- the question was not &quot;why did the monk do what he did?&quot; but &quot;why was it the correct thing to do?&quot; It's an allegory, remember. If a tenzo had really seen Manjusri in the cooking pot, the moral might have been that the old guy needed a vacation. 

I found a variation of the story in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mro.org/zmm/teachings/daido/teisho20.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this dharma talk&lt;/a&gt; --

&lt;blockquote&gt;There’s a famous koan of an ancient master who was a hermit. He had been practicing many, many years, living isolated in the mountains. One day he was cooking soup and in the steam Manjusri Bodhisattva appeared and in his deep, resonant voice proclaimed the Dharma to him. The old hermit immediately picked up the ladle and started beating him with it. &quot;Get out of here!&quot; he said. &quot;Get out of here!&quot; In other words, don’t put another head on top of the one you already have. Anything that we hold on to along the way—anything—is a dead end, because the minute we attach we create two things: the &quot;attachee&quot; and the &quot;attachor.&quot; That is not the intimacy of samadhi; it is not the intimacy of shikantaza.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>BPx3 &#8212; the question was not &#8220;why did the monk do what he did?&#8221; but &#8220;why was it the correct thing to do?&#8221; It&#8217;s an allegory, remember. If a tenzo had really seen Manjusri in the cooking pot, the moral might have been that the old guy needed a vacation. </p>
	<p>I found a variation of the story in <a href="http://www.mro.org/zmm/teachings/daido/teisho20.php" rel="nofollow">this dharma talk</a> &#8211;</p>
	<blockquote><p>There’s a famous koan of an ancient master who was a hermit. He had been practicing many, many years, living isolated in the mountains. One day he was cooking soup and in the steam Manjusri Bodhisattva appeared and in his deep, resonant voice proclaimed the Dharma to him. The old hermit immediately picked up the ladle and started beating him with it. &#8220;Get out of here!&#8221; he said. &#8220;Get out of here!&#8221; In other words, don’t put another head on top of the one you already have. Anything that we hold on to along the way—anything—is a dead end, because the minute we attach we create two things: the &#8220;attachee&#8221; and the &#8220;attachor.&#8221; That is not the intimacy of samadhi; it is not the intimacy of shikantaza.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>by: BPx3</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-267141</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/07/29/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xi/#comment-267141</guid>
					<description>@19, &quot;he had to cook the rice first.&quot;

Exactly.  And the reason he had to cook the rice first is that he recognized the dualistic distinction between a monk's stomach filled with rice and a monk's stomach devoid of rice and held an opinion regarding the favorability of the former over the latter.

It may also be that he had to cook the rice first because, if he didn't do so, he'd be replaced as resident tenzo and required to chop wood and carry water instead.  I know I hold an opinion on the relative favorability of performing those tasks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@19, &#8220;he had to cook the rice first.&#8221;</p>
	<p>Exactly.  And the reason he had to cook the rice first is that he recognized the dualistic distinction between a monk&#8217;s stomach filled with rice and a monk&#8217;s stomach devoid of rice and held an opinion regarding the favorability of the former over the latter.</p>
	<p>It may also be that he had to cook the rice first because, if he didn&#8217;t do so, he&#8217;d be replaced as resident tenzo and required to chop wood and carry water instead.  I know I hold an opinion on the relative favorability of performing those tasks.
</p>
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