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	<title>Comments on: The Wisdom of Doubt, Part XII</title>
	<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/</link>
	<description>Exposing the ugly truths about the Bush Administration.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; The Parameters of Religion</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-483896</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-483896</guid>
					<description>[...] But the results of the criminalization of abortion are not so beneficial. Those pushing for criminalization manufacture civil reasons, such as claims that abortion causes breast cancer (it doesn&amp;#8217;t). They imagine that women suffer emotional damage after abortion, a condition they call Post-Abortion Syndrome that, by any objective measure, does not exist. Yet I have no doubt most of the criminalizers sincerely believe they are doing God&amp;#8217;s will. This is fanaticism, pure and simple, not religion (click here for an explanation of the difference). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] But the results of the criminalization of abortion are not so beneficial. Those pushing for criminalization manufacture civil reasons, such as claims that abortion causes breast cancer (it doesn&#8217;t). They imagine that women suffer emotional damage after abortion, a condition they call Post-Abortion Syndrome that, by any objective measure, does not exist. Yet I have no doubt most of the criminalizers sincerely believe they are doing God&#8217;s will. This is fanaticism, pure and simple, not religion (click here for an explanation of the difference). [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Peter Gaffney</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-277012</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 17:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-277012</guid>
					<description>This has been an excellent series.

I'm guardedly hopeful that just maybe we've seen the high water mark of fundamentalist Christian influence on American politics.  Some key players have been outed as crooks and/or hypocrites.  There seem to be an increasing number of churches offering a more liberal, socially-conscious brand of Christianity -- a la Rick Warren.  I also think the rise of fundamentalism can be seen as in part a reaction to the upheavals of the 60's, which are now a second-hand story to anyone much under 50.  I don't want to downplay the threat these people still pose to our democracy, but I do think there may be cause to be somewhat optimistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This has been an excellent series.</p>
	<p>I&#8217;m guardedly hopeful that just maybe we&#8217;ve seen the high water mark of fundamentalist Christian influence on American politics.  Some key players have been outed as crooks and/or hypocrites.  There seem to be an increasing number of churches offering a more liberal, socially-conscious brand of Christianity &#8212; a la Rick Warren.  I also think the rise of fundamentalism can be seen as in part a reaction to the upheavals of the 60&#8217;s, which are now a second-hand story to anyone much under 50.  I don&#8217;t want to downplay the threat these people still pose to our democracy, but I do think there may be cause to be somewhat optimistic.
</p>
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; Messianic Hitchens</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-273997</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-273997</guid>
					<description>[...] Hitchens may be confused by the common practice of using of the word religion as a synonym for faith. I argued here and here why religion and faith are not synonymous. I refuse to call myself a &amp;#8220;person of faith&amp;#8221; even though I am religious, and I think all religious people should do likewise. When you define the totality of religion as nothing but &amp;#8220;faith,&amp;#8221; and when faith in anything becomes indistinguishable from &amp;#8220;religion,&amp;#8221; then the word religion itself has lost any useful purpose and ought to be retired. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] Hitchens may be confused by the common practice of using of the word religion as a synonym for faith. I argued here and here why religion and faith are not synonymous. I refuse to call myself a &#8220;person of faith&#8221; even though I am religious, and I think all religious people should do likewise. When you define the totality of religion as nothing but &#8220;faith,&#8221; and when faith in anything becomes indistinguishable from &#8220;religion,&#8221; then the word religion itself has lost any useful purpose and ought to be retired. [&#8230;]
</p>
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		<title>by: paradoctor</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-269251</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 23:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-269251</guid>
					<description>#12: Yes, that is in fact literally the case, and I say this as someone who survived a doctorate in mathematical logic. Specifically, Goedel's Incompleteness Theorems say that 1) any logical system is either inconsistent or incomplete; and 2) any system that proves itself to be consistent is in fact not consistent. In maha's terms, the 1st incompleteness theorem restates that words do not capture truth; and therefore it is wise to doubt; and the 2nd incompleteness theorem implies the downfall of pride, and the sin of fanaticism. 

The point you are making - the necessity of faith - is encoded in _another_ metamathematical theorem; Loeb's Theorem, which says that a logical system which states its own provability is, in fact, provable. Faith in self is valid.

This is because self-proof is semantically void; it carries no information, and therefore cannot cause a contradiction. Self-confidence rises because, like a bubble, it is unburdened by weight. Faith in self is valid because, unlike pride, it does _not_ make any assumptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#12: Yes, that is in fact literally the case, and I say this as someone who survived a doctorate in mathematical logic. Specifically, Goedel&#8217;s Incompleteness Theorems say that 1) any logical system is either inconsistent or incomplete; and 2) any system that proves itself to be consistent is in fact not consistent. In maha&#8217;s terms, the 1st incompleteness theorem restates that words do not capture truth; and therefore it is wise to doubt; and the 2nd incompleteness theorem implies the downfall of pride, and the sin of fanaticism. </p>
	<p>The point you are making - the necessity of faith - is encoded in _another_ metamathematical theorem; Loeb&#8217;s Theorem, which says that a logical system which states its own provability is, in fact, provable. Faith in self is valid.</p>
	<p>This is because self-proof is semantically void; it carries no information, and therefore cannot cause a contradiction. Self-confidence rises because, like a bubble, it is unburdened by weight. Faith in self is valid because, unlike pride, it does _not_ make any assumptions.
</p>
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		<title>by: The Mahablog &#187; The Wisdom of Doubt: The Series</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-269078</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:39:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-269078</guid>
					<description>[...] Part XII: How to tell the difference between religious faith and fanaticism. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] Part XII: How to tell the difference between religious faith and fanaticism. [&#8230;]
</p>
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		<title>by: erinyes</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-268785</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 21:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-268785</guid>
					<description>This is why we love our Maha.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is why we love our Maha.
</p>
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		<title>by: smendler</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-268748</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-268748</guid>
					<description>The flip side of the &quot;Wisdom of Doubt&quot; is perhaps &quot;The Logical Necessity of Faith&quot; - the rational mind, if it is honest with itself, must conclude that there will always be some things that are beyond its ability to understand or control.  (I suspect that Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem says the same thing, in a way.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The flip side of the &#8220;Wisdom of Doubt&#8221; is perhaps &#8220;The Logical Necessity of Faith&#8221; - the rational mind, if it is honest with itself, must conclude that there will always be some things that are beyond its ability to understand or control.  (I suspect that Goedel&#8217;s Incompleteness Theorem says the same thing, in a way.)
</p>
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		<title>by: WereBear</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-268681</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-268681</guid>
					<description>Loved the stuff about fanaticism. Their behavior reminds me of a compelling strategem for treating addiction: regard addiction as the way an addict radically simplifies their life and takes away the decision making process.

At the end stages, addiction boils down to three aspects of a cycle: want the thing, get the thing, have the thing. Repeat. (I say &quot;thing&quot; because gambling, for instance, can be used as a drug is used.)

So it's easy for me to see slavish devotion to the tenets of a certain religion as the same thing as an addiction. It serves the same purpose; not thinking. Not making decisions. Not taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Loved the stuff about fanaticism. Their behavior reminds me of a compelling strategem for treating addiction: regard addiction as the way an addict radically simplifies their life and takes away the decision making process.</p>
	<p>At the end stages, addiction boils down to three aspects of a cycle: want the thing, get the thing, have the thing. Repeat. (I say &#8220;thing&#8221; because gambling, for instance, can be used as a drug is used.)</p>
	<p>So it&#8217;s easy for me to see slavish devotion to the tenets of a certain religion as the same thing as an addiction. It serves the same purpose; not thinking. Not making decisions. Not taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions.
</p>
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		<title>by: Art James (clownsense etc)</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-268679</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-268679</guid>
					<description>These teachings here need more time from me so I can savor and assimilate....slowly. 

Thank you.

This is holy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>These teachings here need more time from me so I can savor and assimilate&#8230;.slowly. </p>
	<p>Thank you.</p>
	<p>This is holy.
</p>
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		<title>by: paradoctor</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-268576</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 07:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/the-wisdom-of-doubt-part-xii/#comment-268576</guid>
					<description>I agree that calling a religion a &quot;faith&quot; is a misnomer - or, let's say, an exaggeration. Sometimes a church or a congregation does indeed keep the faith; but sometimes they do not. In the latter case I suggest that we call them, not 'faiths', but 'prides'. As in a pride of lions, and also as in the sin of pride.

Fundamentalism is very much a Pride. In your Hoffer quote, he anatomizes the shame within the pride.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I agree that calling a religion a &#8220;faith&#8221; is a misnomer - or, let&#8217;s say, an exaggeration. Sometimes a church or a congregation does indeed keep the faith; but sometimes they do not. In the latter case I suggest that we call them, not &#8216;faiths&#8217;, but &#8216;prides&#8217;. As in a pride of lions, and also as in the sin of pride.</p>
	<p>Fundamentalism is very much a Pride. In your Hoffer quote, he anatomizes the shame within the pride.
</p>
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