Comments on: Underside of “the American Hologram” http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/ Exposing the ugly truths about the Bush Administration. Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:21:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1.3 by: The Mahablog » Essentials: What is Conservativism and What is Wrong With It http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-269471 Sat, 04 Aug 2007 18:24:21 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-269471 [...] I’d like to use this occasion to showcase a terrific, classic article by Philip Agre. I off-handedly linked to it in an earlier posting, and which commenter Pat saw and wrote back with a few questions. I’m sure some of you have seen it. Agre’s article is called What is Conservativism and What is Wrong With It. It directly connects conservativism with aristocracy. It explains how this has been with us practically since human beings have had cities, and it explains how it is completely antithetical to the founding ideas of America. [...] […] I’d like to use this occasion to showcase a terrific, classic article by Philip Agre. I off-handedly linked to it in an earlier posting, and which commenter Pat saw and wrote back with a few questions. I’m sure some of you have seen it. Agre’s article is called What is Conservativism and What is Wrong With It. It directly connects conservativism with aristocracy. It explains how this has been with us practically since human beings have had cities, and it explains how it is completely antithetical to the founding ideas of America. […]

]]> by: Pat http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-269319 Sat, 04 Aug 2007 04:31:35 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-269319 I get 10 pages of hits when I google Phil Agre. The parts I liked best were the very lucid tour through hijacking of language that is so typical of conservatives. I've read the works of Deborah Tannen, George Lakoff, Thomas Frank, and Geoffrey Nunberg and other articles from cognitive linguists and Agre's descriptions are as good as it gets. The part about Elian Gonzalez clearly depicts how conservatives perceive a world ordered by absolutes and how they are reduced to sophistry when unable to resolves conflict between the absolutes. With Gonzalez the choice was between returning someone to a state run by a dictator and keeping families together. Nuggets like these are simply too numerous to mention. I get 10 pages of hits when I google Phil Agre.

The parts I liked best were the very lucid tour through hijacking of language that is so typical of conservatives. I’ve read the works of Deborah Tannen, George Lakoff, Thomas Frank, and Geoffrey Nunberg and other articles from cognitive linguists and Agre’s descriptions are as good as it gets.

The part about Elian Gonzalez clearly depicts how conservatives perceive a world ordered by absolutes and how they are reduced to sophistry when unable to resolves conflict between the absolutes. With Gonzalez the choice was between returning someone to a state run by a dictator and keeping families together.

Nuggets like these are simply too numerous to mention.

]]> by: moonbat http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268749 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:05:38 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268749 Pat, a couple more things - too inclined to write before thinking - to quote Gene Kelly: <i>Gotta Dance</i>: 1) the article in question is the only writing I know of Agre. There may be more (the mother lode) but I don't know about it 2) it's very typical of winguts to nit-pick small things in an argument, which in their minds invalidates the whole message. Or it at least distracts from its power, and is their attempt to refute it. Theres's a cute term for this (don't recall where I heard this): <i>nut-picking</i>. This happens constantly so it's a well known trap, to be expected, and to avoid falling into. Pat, a couple more things - too inclined to write before thinking - to quote Gene Kelly: Gotta Dance:

1) the article in question is the only writing I know of Agre. There may be more (the mother lode) but I don’t know about it

2) it’s very typical of winguts to nit-pick small things in an argument, which in their minds invalidates the whole message. Or it at least distracts from its power, and is their attempt to refute it. Theres’s a cute term for this (don’t recall where I heard this): nut-picking. This happens constantly so it’s a well known trap, to be expected, and to avoid falling into.

]]> by: moonbat http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268739 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:13:58 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268739 Pat, I'm glad you commented about this, because I kind of slipped in Agre's article at the end, without an explanation, although he's extremely important for all of us to know. I don't remember where I first came across Philip Agre - and I hope he's still working and doing well. I have mentioned his article in dozens of comments on various sites, and these almost always draw appreciative remarks like yours. So, spread the word, wherever you can. I really should've done a better job of highlighting his article, and maybe I'll devote an entire posting to it later on. For those reading this, who wonder what we're talking about, click on the last link at the end of the posting: "the fraud at the heart of conservativism". Pat, I’m glad you commented about this, because I kind of slipped in Agre’s article at the end, without an explanation, although he’s extremely important for all of us to know.

I don’t remember where I first came across Philip Agre - and I hope he’s still working and doing well. I have mentioned his article in dozens of comments on various sites, and these almost always draw appreciative remarks like yours. So, spread the word, wherever you can. I really should’ve done a better job of highlighting his article, and maybe I’ll devote an entire posting to it later on.

For those reading this, who wonder what we’re talking about, click on the last link at the end of the posting: “the fraud at the heart of conservativism”.

]]> by: Pat http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268724 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:56:18 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268724 Moonbat, how did you come across Agre's article? That was great! Is that little nugget part of some motherlode into which I might tap? Pray tell. Was he a prof of yours? I work with a UCLA grad with CompSci MA and will ask him what he knows of Agre. I quoted the initial definitions along with a link to the article. You can probably guess what happened. People quibbled over the 102-word definitions and ignored the 13,000+ word substance. The discussion degraded into one of labels and definitions, blissfully unaware of the significant fact that the definitions were actually the conclusions, stated first, of a well-supported argument. We have dictionary definitions that are ideals and often very fluid and we have definitions of behavior that are more practical working definitions. Several fence straddling "conservatives" (whatever that means) actually expressed concern and frustration over the real risks of the iconic conservative label being usurped as a result of damage from the Bush administration. We liberals well know how that can happen, don't we? Moonbat, how did you come across Agre’s article? That was great! Is that little nugget part of some motherlode into which I might tap? Pray tell.

Was he a prof of yours? I work with a UCLA grad with CompSci MA and will ask him what he knows of Agre.

I quoted the initial definitions along with a link to the article. You can probably guess what happened. People quibbled over the 102-word definitions and ignored the 13,000+ word substance.

The discussion degraded into one of labels and definitions, blissfully unaware of the significant fact that the definitions were actually the conclusions, stated first, of a well-supported argument.

We have dictionary definitions that are ideals and often very fluid and we have definitions of behavior that are more practical working definitions.

Several fence straddling “conservatives” (whatever that means) actually expressed concern and frustration over the real risks of the iconic conservative label being usurped as a result of damage from the Bush administration.

We liberals well know how that can happen, don’t we?

]]> by: ken melvin http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268720 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:32:26 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268720 Bageant is a fantastic voice; of Billmon quality, one that cuts through facade. Read everything he's written in the last 5 years. I think the 87 ending of equal time was the beginning of the end of all that had been gained. Once they closed the arena of ideas and controlled the media, they could make the people believe anything they wanted them to believe. The selection process has left large groups behind. We've been told/asked to pretend they don't exist; that all is hunky-dory. when Jonah Goldsberg or Mitch McConnell talk of free speech they mean the kind that only money can buy. None of those pesky ideas. Bageant is a fantastic voice; of Billmon quality, one that cuts through facade. Read everything he’s written in the last 5 years.

I think the 87 ending of equal time was the beginning of the end of all that had been gained. Once they closed the arena of ideas and controlled the media, they could make the people believe anything they wanted them to believe. The selection process has left large groups behind. We’ve been told/asked to pretend they don’t exist; that all is hunky-dory. when Jonah Goldsberg or Mitch McConnell talk of free speech they mean the kind that only money can buy. None of those pesky ideas.

]]> by: WereBear http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268070 Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:16:58 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268070 "How do you convince people that stopping two same sexed people from marrying is more important than decent public schools?" They do it because of course it is not framed that way. The legacy of so many having had it so good for so long is that people have forgotten it can be taken away. A certain minimum is presupposed, and one of the GOP's great accomplishments is that they have dragged everything down to the basement, and then started digging a hole. “How do you convince people that stopping two same sexed people from marrying is more important than decent public schools?”

They do it because of course it is not framed that way. The legacy of so many having had it so good for so long is that people have forgotten it can be taken away. A certain minimum is presupposed, and one of the GOP’s great accomplishments is that they have dragged everything down to the basement, and then started digging a hole.

]]> by: Bucky Blue http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268039 Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:23:47 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268039 That's been the story in American politics over the past thirty years. How do you get people to vote so against their own economic interest in lieu of some 'social' concerns. And this isn't just a little difference, its enormous. How do you convince people that stopping two same sexed people from marrying is more important than decent public schools? The republicans have been masters at this. I can only conclude that it's the schools in many of these red, southern states. States that have the most effective public schools (as shown through test scores, not the best or most reliable measure) in the upper mid-west and northeast, invariably vote blue. The reddest of red states have crappy public school systems. That’s been the story in American politics over the past thirty years. How do you get people to vote so against their own economic interest in lieu of some ’social’ concerns. And this isn’t just a little difference, its enormous. How do you convince people that stopping two same sexed people from marrying is more important than decent public schools? The republicans have been masters at this. I can only conclude that it’s the schools in many of these red, southern states. States that have the most effective public schools (as shown through test scores, not the best or most reliable measure) in the upper mid-west and northeast, invariably vote blue. The reddest of red states have crappy public school systems.

]]> by: Hunting on the web Blog » Blog Archive » Late breaking news http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268026 Wed, 01 Aug 2007 13:02:31 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268026 [...] Underside of the American Hologram [...] […] Underside of the American Hologram […]

]]> by: Frank Wilhoit http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268016 Wed, 01 Aug 2007 12:09:12 +0000 http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/01/underside-of-the-american-hologram/#comment-268016 A human can endure any degradation, physical or emotional, no matter how random or how sadistic; it has an infinite capacity for stoicism; it will bend and twist and shrink and turn inward upon itself indefinitely; there is no degree of pressure that will entirely crush it. But just threaten to make it learn something, and it WILL kill you. A human can endure any degradation, physical or emotional, no matter how random or how sadistic; it has an infinite capacity for stoicism; it will bend and twist and shrink and turn inward upon itself indefinitely; there is no degree of pressure that will entirely crush it.

But just threaten to make it learn something, and it WILL kill you.

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