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	<title>Comments on: Un-atoned</title>
	<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/</link>
	<description>Exposing the ugly truths about the Bush Administration.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Dan S.</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-289327</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 20:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-289327</guid>
					<description>One interesting bit is in the most recent entry (9/20) of the Slate dialog, where Rosin opens up the discussion to a Patrick Henry grad, who writes:

&quot;&lt;i&gt;As long as your faith is an ambiguous thing that's determined by your culture and personality and the parts of the Bible that you like best—that's fine with most liberals. But the moment your faith becomes grounded in a God that has revealed his opinions and principles in a document (the Bible) that people rally around, study, learn, and believe despite their personalities and personal convictions (which is the sort of &quot;elite&quot; evangelicals you hung around with at PHC)—you're dealing with a united force with a relatively united voice. So if you believe that being open-minded, curious, and tolerant (which is obviously how David Kuo defines love) are the highest virtues—then that other crowd is pretty scary&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

And the first thing I thought of was, in fact, maha's 'Wisdom of Doubt' series.

Have to make dinner, so I'll leave out the 'but don't forget (as the Dawkins, etc. folks have pointed out), the kind of sophisticated understanding of faith and religion represented by Tillich is a teeny-tiny minority/ but the understanding of faith and religion (all sorts) represented by the Dawkins, etc. folks is so stunningly tone-deaf and socially/sociologically naive . . .' back and forth 'til later..  Just let me toss out two books I'm reading: Armstrong's &lt;i&gt;The Great Transformation&lt;/i&gt;, and Barbara King's &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Evolving-God-Provocative-Origins-Religion/dp/0385511043/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-7415281-7438856?ie=UTF8&amp;#38;s=books&amp;#38;qid=1190666925&amp;#38;sr=8-1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Evolving God&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt;, both of which are fascinating - King's book is one of the recent crop looking at religion in the light of our evolutionary history, but as she's an anthropologist, she actually has a sense of human nature and human life: as one of the amazon reviewers say:&quot;&lt;i&gt;The front cover of Barbara King's &quot;Evolving God&quot; proclaims that this is a &quot;provocative view on the origins of religion.&quot; Perhaps, but this is not a deliberately provocative book. &quot;Evolving God&quot; is a gentle, respectful, and above all thoughtful book that searches for the origins of the religious impulse. King finds this in what she calls belongingness, &quot;mattering to someone who matters to you,&quot; a trait found in contemporary humans but also in our human and non-human primate ancestors . . .&lt;/i&gt;&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One interesting bit is in the most recent entry (9/20) of the Slate dialog, where Rosin opens up the discussion to a Patrick Henry grad, who writes:</p>
	<p>&#8220;<i>As long as your faith is an ambiguous thing that&#8217;s determined by your culture and personality and the parts of the Bible that you like best—that&#8217;s fine with most liberals. But the moment your faith becomes grounded in a God that has revealed his opinions and principles in a document (the Bible) that people rally around, study, learn, and believe despite their personalities and personal convictions (which is the sort of &#8220;elite&#8221; evangelicals you hung around with at PHC)—you&#8217;re dealing with a united force with a relatively united voice. So if you believe that being open-minded, curious, and tolerant (which is obviously how David Kuo defines love) are the highest virtues—then that other crowd is pretty scary</i>&#8221;</p>
	<p>And the first thing I thought of was, in fact, maha&#8217;s &#8216;Wisdom of Doubt&#8217; series.</p>
	<p>Have to make dinner, so I&#8217;ll leave out the &#8216;but don&#8217;t forget (as the Dawkins, etc. folks have pointed out), the kind of sophisticated understanding of faith and religion represented by Tillich is a teeny-tiny minority/ but the understanding of faith and religion (all sorts) represented by the Dawkins, etc. folks is so stunningly tone-deaf and socially/sociologically naive . . .&#8217; back and forth &#8217;til later..  Just let me toss out two books I&#8217;m reading: Armstrong&#8217;s <i>The Great Transformation</i>, and Barbara King&#8217;s <i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Evolving-God-Provocative-Origins-Religion/dp/0385511043/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-7415281-7438856?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1190666925&amp;sr=8-1" rel="nofollow">Evolving God</a></i>, both of which are fascinating - King&#8217;s book is one of the recent crop looking at religion in the light of our evolutionary history, but as she&#8217;s an anthropologist, she actually has a sense of human nature and human life: as one of the amazon reviewers say:&#8221;<i>The front cover of Barbara King&#8217;s &#8220;Evolving God&#8221; proclaims that this is a &#8220;provocative view on the origins of religion.&#8221; Perhaps, but this is not a deliberately provocative book. &#8220;Evolving God&#8221; is a gentle, respectful, and above all thoughtful book that searches for the origins of the religious impulse. King finds this in what she calls belongingness, &#8220;mattering to someone who matters to you,&#8221; a trait found in contemporary humans but also in our human and non-human primate ancestors . . .</i>&#8220;
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		<title>by: khughes1963</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287773</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 02:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287773</guid>
					<description>Good column. I read Hedges' book when it came out in January of this year. I thought it good, but scary. Hedges' father is a retired Presbyterian minister and Hedges' upbringing has strongly influenced his writing and thinking on this issue. 

You are right about evangelicalism originating as a non-authoritarian movement. I am a Catholic, and I am well aware (as many are not) that one of the objections that the English had with Catholicism after the Reformation, and particularly in the 17th and 18th centuries, was the association of the institutional Catholic church with an authoritarian monarchy. This was one of the elements of the English Civil War in the 17th century, and it was one of the many reasons that James II wound up deposed and living in exile in France. It's rather ironic that a religious movement that originated as a non-authoritarian movement has now adopted the authoritarianism its founders objected to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Good column. I read Hedges&#8217; book when it came out in January of this year. I thought it good, but scary. Hedges&#8217; father is a retired Presbyterian minister and Hedges&#8217; upbringing has strongly influenced his writing and thinking on this issue. </p>
	<p>You are right about evangelicalism originating as a non-authoritarian movement. I am a Catholic, and I am well aware (as many are not) that one of the objections that the English had with Catholicism after the Reformation, and particularly in the 17th and 18th centuries, was the association of the institutional Catholic church with an authoritarian monarchy. This was one of the elements of the English Civil War in the 17th century, and it was one of the many reasons that James II wound up deposed and living in exile in France. It&#8217;s rather ironic that a religious movement that originated as a non-authoritarian movement has now adopted the authoritarianism its founders objected to.
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		<title>by: Bucky Blue</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287770</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 02:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287770</guid>
					<description>Coming from a Christian stand point, the grasp for power that has occurred over the past thirty years has dranatically weakened the true power of the church. The Great Awakenings didn't happen because protestants had gained access and control over the political process. Dobson actually had a pretty good ministry, I know a lot of non-christian family therapist (wife is therapist) who would recommend some of Dobson's books to families who were dealing with different issues. There is no chance they would ever do that now. Dobson has traded his influence and help in a needed area for temporary political influence. I even heard Chuck Colson on his show in the early eighties and Dobson was kind of fanning Colson's ego by praising him for all of the great family legislation that the Nixon administration had gotten passed ( I know, I was shocked as well). Colson stopped him and said that compared to the kind of advice and help Dobson was giving to families was much more important than any pieces of legislation that was passed. Thats been the real loss of the Religious Rights grab for power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Coming from a Christian stand point, the grasp for power that has occurred over the past thirty years has dranatically weakened the true power of the church. The Great Awakenings didn&#8217;t happen because protestants had gained access and control over the political process. Dobson actually had a pretty good ministry, I know a lot of non-christian family therapist (wife is therapist) who would recommend some of Dobson&#8217;s books to families who were dealing with different issues. There is no chance they would ever do that now. Dobson has traded his influence and help in a needed area for temporary political influence. I even heard Chuck Colson on his show in the early eighties and Dobson was kind of fanning Colson&#8217;s ego by praising him for all of the great family legislation that the Nixon administration had gotten passed ( I know, I was shocked as well). Colson stopped him and said that compared to the kind of advice and help Dobson was giving to families was much more important than any pieces of legislation that was passed. Thats been the real loss of the Religious Rights grab for power.
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		<title>by: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287205</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287205</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Considering that the Southern Baptist Convention was formed in order to perpetuate slavery, it’s a bit disingenuous to claim it was perverted by fundamentalists in the 70’s and 80’s.&lt;/i&gt;

In the 1950s and 1960s it was more open-minded on many issues than it is now, however. Think Bill Moyers and Jimmy Carter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Considering that the Southern Baptist Convention was formed in order to perpetuate slavery, it’s a bit disingenuous to claim it was perverted by fundamentalists in the 70’s and 80’s.</i></p>
	<p>In the 1950s and 1960s it was more open-minded on many issues than it is now, however. Think Bill Moyers and Jimmy Carter.
</p>
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		<title>by: No More Mr. Nice Guy!</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287195</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287195</guid>
					<description>#14: Considering that the Southern Baptist Convention was formed in order to perpetuate slavery, it's a bit disingenuous to claim it was perverted by fundamentalists in the 70's and 80's.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#14: Considering that the Southern Baptist Convention was formed in order to perpetuate slavery, it&#8217;s a bit disingenuous to claim it was perverted by fundamentalists in the 70&#8217;s and 80&#8217;s.
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		<title>by: Lynne</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287146</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287146</guid>
					<description>Kuo seems like a reasonable and intelligent sort of guy to me, even though I don't believe much in evangelism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kuo seems like a reasonable and intelligent sort of guy to me, even though I don&#8217;t believe much in evangelism.
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		<title>by: Bonnie</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287033</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 17:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-287033</guid>
					<description>Regarding paradoctor's remarks, I don't believe that liberals are about liberating people.  My idea of being a liberal is live and let live.  People who want to be religious in whatever manner they wish, may do so--just don't try to shove your religion down my throat.  I have no desire to liberate people from their religion.  I will help people who need help; but, I will not go around and tell people they should be like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Regarding paradoctor&#8217;s remarks, I don&#8217;t believe that liberals are about liberating people.  My idea of being a liberal is live and let live.  People who want to be religious in whatever manner they wish, may do so&#8211;just don&#8217;t try to shove your religion down my throat.  I have no desire to liberate people from their religion.  I will help people who need help; but, I will not go around and tell people they should be like.
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		<title>by: Swami</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-286981</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 16:34:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-286981</guid>
					<description>Father?.. sounds like something from Jim Jones and the People's Temple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Father?.. sounds like something from Jim Jones and the People&#8217;s Temple.
</p>
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		<title>by: kerryinalaska</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-286927</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 16:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-286927</guid>
					<description>the Father showed me, many many years ago now, that &quot;religion&quot; and relationship are two different things. Religion is man attempting to get to God. Relationship is God attempting to get to man. He wants relationship, not religion. In fact the more I see the more I believe that religion is something from the dark side, from satan if you will, and not anything to do with the Father. Relationship happens in the heart and requires no other person to interpret or decipher Fathers directions. 
It is my believe that these modern &quot;christians&quot; are from the ugly side, a product of satan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>the Father showed me, many many years ago now, that &#8220;religion&#8221; and relationship are two different things. Religion is man attempting to get to God. Relationship is God attempting to get to man. He wants relationship, not religion. In fact the more I see the more I believe that religion is something from the dark side, from satan if you will, and not anything to do with the Father. Relationship happens in the heart and requires no other person to interpret or decipher Fathers directions.<br />
It is my believe that these modern &#8220;christians&#8221; are from the ugly side, a product of satan.
</p>
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		<title>by: joanr16</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-286882</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.mahablog.com/2007/09/22/un-attoned/#comment-286882</guid>
					<description>Indeed, one of the first teachings in favor of the separation of church and state is: &quot;Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God, that which is God's.&quot;  (The remainder of this chapter of St. Matthew states: &quot;When they heard this they were amazed, and leaving [Jesus] they went away.&quot;  Apparently no one wants to hear such an, um, inconvenient truth.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Indeed, one of the first teachings in favor of the separation of church and state is: &#8220;Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar&#8217;s, and unto God, that which is God&#8217;s.&#8221;  (The remainder of this chapter of St. Matthew states: &#8220;When they heard this they were amazed, and leaving [Jesus] they went away.&#8221;  Apparently no one wants to hear such an, um, inconvenient truth.)
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