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	<title>Comments on: The Hole Gets Deeper, the Faithful Keep Digging</title>
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	<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/18/the-hole-gets-deeper-the-faithful-keep-digging/</link>
	<description>Making the World Safe for Liberalism</description>
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		<title>By: The Mahablog &#187; Happy Anniversary, Roe v. Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/18/the-hole-gets-deeper-the-faithful-keep-digging/comment-page-1/#comment-569026</link>
		<dc:creator>The Mahablog &#187; Happy Anniversary, Roe v. Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=2884#comment-569026</guid>
		<description>[...] few points: First, it&#8217;s important for everyone to understand that the hard core of the anti-reproductive rights movement hasn&#8217;t &#8220;signed on&#8221; to anything. This third-way, common ground business is being [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] few points: First, it&#8217;s important for everyone to understand that the hard core of the anti-reproductive rights movement hasn&#8217;t &#8220;signed on&#8221; to anything. This third-way, common ground business is being [...]</p>
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		<title>By: btchakir</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/18/the-hole-gets-deeper-the-faithful-keep-digging/comment-page-1/#comment-549610</link>
		<dc:creator>btchakir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=2884#comment-549610</guid>
		<description>Another Appopintment:

An &lt;a href=&quot;http://lostintransition.nationaljournal.com/2008/11/orszag-tapped-as-obamas-budget.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article by Alexis Simendinger &lt;/a&gt;in the National Journal says Obama will name Peter Orszag as Budget Director.

Orszag, currently Congressional Budget Office Director and a former economic adviser to Bill Clinton, will take on this important Cabinet post as Obama faces the $700 Billion mess he inherits from Bush.

Orszag is seen as an impressive, 40-year-old analyst with expertise in health care policy, Social Security, pensions, and global climate change.

He is not expected to have a problem in Senate confirmation.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://underthelobsterscope.blogspot.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Under The LobsterScope&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another Appopintment:</p>
<p>An <a href="http://lostintransition.nationaljournal.com/2008/11/orszag-tapped-as-obamas-budget.php" rel="nofollow">article by Alexis Simendinger </a>in the National Journal says Obama will name Peter Orszag as Budget Director.</p>
<p>Orszag, currently Congressional Budget Office Director and a former economic adviser to Bill Clinton, will take on this important Cabinet post as Obama faces the $700 Billion mess he inherits from Bush.</p>
<p>Orszag is seen as an impressive, 40-year-old analyst with expertise in health care policy, Social Security, pensions, and global climate change.</p>
<p>He is not expected to have a problem in Senate confirmation.</p>
<p><a href="http://underthelobsterscope.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Under The LobsterScope</a></p>
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		<title>By: btchakir</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/18/the-hole-gets-deeper-the-faithful-keep-digging/comment-page-1/#comment-549609</link>
		<dc:creator>btchakir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=2884#comment-549609</guid>
		<description>Begich Takes Akaska!

Convicted criminal Sen. Ted Stevens is out as the write-in votes are added to the count. Looks like Palin won&#039;t get to appoint herself to the post... or run for it in a special election. That puts her out of the national picture for the next two years.

Now we need to follow the Minnesota recount, which Al Franken has a reasonable chance of taking given the location of the questioned write-ins, and the Georgia Run-off, which I am not so sure of. It certainly would be nice to get that creep Saxby Chamblis out of the Senate.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://underthelobsterscope.blogspot.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Under The LobsterScope&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Begich Takes Akaska!</p>
<p>Convicted criminal Sen. Ted Stevens is out as the write-in votes are added to the count. Looks like Palin won&#8217;t get to appoint herself to the post&#8230; or run for it in a special election. That puts her out of the national picture for the next two years.</p>
<p>Now we need to follow the Minnesota recount, which Al Franken has a reasonable chance of taking given the location of the questioned write-ins, and the Georgia Run-off, which I am not so sure of. It certainly would be nice to get that creep Saxby Chamblis out of the Senate.</p>
<p><a href="http://underthelobsterscope.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Under The LobsterScope</a></p>
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		<title>By: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/18/the-hole-gets-deeper-the-faithful-keep-digging/comment-page-1/#comment-549608</link>
		<dc:creator>maha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 02:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=2884#comment-549608</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;when many who are people in this monolithic, faceless Anti-Choice Movement who can simply be shown these statistics, these facts, how they work. &lt;/i&gt;

I tried doing that for years. I gave up. Hard core Fetus People cannot take in even the simplest facts about gestation, abortion procedures, abortions rates, etc. Talking to them is like talking to a tree stump. All most of us can do is keep presenting facts and hope we get through to people who are not married to a movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>when many who are people in this monolithic, faceless Anti-Choice Movement who can simply be shown these statistics, these facts, how they work. </i></p>
<p>I tried doing that for years. I gave up. Hard core Fetus People cannot take in even the simplest facts about gestation, abortion procedures, abortions rates, etc. Talking to them is like talking to a tree stump. All most of us can do is keep presenting facts and hope we get through to people who are not married to a movement.</p>
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		<title>By: Hominidx</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/18/the-hole-gets-deeper-the-faithful-keep-digging/comment-page-1/#comment-549607</link>
		<dc:creator>Hominidx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 01:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=2884#comment-549607</guid>
		<description>The problem here is that yes, there is common ground to be found. While it&#039;s an interesting framing of individuals for reproductive rights vs. The Anti-Rights Movement, which just isn&#039;t the case - &quot;they&quot; are made up of individuals who can be persuaded, and have been, by finding this common ground.  It&#039;s discouraging to find such a broad-brushed dismissal here, when many who are people in this monolithic, faceless Anti-Choice Movement who can simply be shown these statistics, these facts, how they work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem here is that yes, there is common ground to be found. While it&#8217;s an interesting framing of individuals for reproductive rights vs. The Anti-Rights Movement, which just isn&#8217;t the case &#8211; &#8220;they&#8221; are made up of individuals who can be persuaded, and have been, by finding this common ground.  It&#8217;s discouraging to find such a broad-brushed dismissal here, when many who are people in this monolithic, faceless Anti-Choice Movement who can simply be shown these statistics, these facts, how they work.</p>
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		<title>By: maha</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/18/the-hole-gets-deeper-the-faithful-keep-digging/comment-page-1/#comment-549606</link>
		<dc:creator>maha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=2884#comment-549606</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It amazes me how Democratic pundits continue to think that ABORTION is somehow about abortion. &lt;/i&gt;

SteveG, for your, ABORTION may not be about abortion. However, for a woman dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, abortion is, um, about abortion. It&#039;s not theory; it&#039;s not ideology; it&#039;s her body and her life. And she is the one I&#039;m concerned about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>It amazes me how Democratic pundits continue to think that ABORTION is somehow about abortion. </i></p>
<p>SteveG, for your, ABORTION may not be about abortion. However, for a woman dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, abortion is, um, about abortion. It&#8217;s not theory; it&#8217;s not ideology; it&#8217;s her body and her life. And she is the one I&#8217;m concerned about.</p>
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		<title>By: Amyadoptee</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/18/the-hole-gets-deeper-the-faithful-keep-digging/comment-page-1/#comment-549605</link>
		<dc:creator>Amyadoptee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=2884#comment-549605</guid>
		<description>As an adoptee rights activist, I believe in contraception, comprehensive sex education, teaching parenting and sexual responsibility.  That will drastically reduce the numbers of abortion.  However, many of the anti abortionist crowd doesn&#039;t even like contraception of any kind.  Its losing battle to argue the point with them.  They want to control women, children, and the act of sex.  I get tired of it.  To them, I am a forever child in the body of a grown woman. Thank God my uterus is gone.  I now just worry about my daughters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an adoptee rights activist, I believe in contraception, comprehensive sex education, teaching parenting and sexual responsibility.  That will drastically reduce the numbers of abortion.  However, many of the anti abortionist crowd doesn&#8217;t even like contraception of any kind.  Its losing battle to argue the point with them.  They want to control women, children, and the act of sex.  I get tired of it.  To them, I am a forever child in the body of a grown woman. Thank God my uterus is gone.  I now just worry about my daughters.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveG</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/18/the-hole-gets-deeper-the-faithful-keep-digging/comment-page-1/#comment-549604</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=2884#comment-549604</guid>
		<description>It amazes me how Democratic pundits continue to think that &lt;a&gt;ABORTION is somehow about abortion&lt;/a&gt;. Even if, miraculously, we were successful in completely eliminating unwanted pregnancies making abortion completely obsolete, ABORTION would not go away because it is really not about abortion from the left or right.  
 
For the left, it is about protecting hard fought gains in women&#039;s rights and for the right it serves two purposes. First, it is the tip of the sword for those trying to Christianize American policy. Second, it is part of a cage and frame strategy to undermine feminist progress.  
 
Cage and frame is designed to take an entire collection of discussions out of the public discourse. You take all of, say, women&#039;s rights issues and put them in a rhetorical cage allowing out only one token issue which you then frame in a fashion most advantageous to you and begin yelling and screaming about it at the top of your lungs. Your opponent now has a choice, fight vigorously and use up all the money, energy, and media attention on this one issue or lose on the issue and give momentum and framing power to the other side.  
 
When you take the bait, the mainstream sees the vigorous, red-faced discussants and assumes that there is fair and open debate on all issues thereby killing all possible progress on any other issue. You can see this rhetorical strategy on immigration, the environment, education, and many other places, but nowhere is it more effective in sucking all the oxygen out of the room than here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It amazes me how Democratic pundits continue to think that <a>ABORTION is somehow about abortion</a>. Even if, miraculously, we were successful in completely eliminating unwanted pregnancies making abortion completely obsolete, ABORTION would not go away because it is really not about abortion from the left or right.  </p>
<p>For the left, it is about protecting hard fought gains in women&#8217;s rights and for the right it serves two purposes. First, it is the tip of the sword for those trying to Christianize American policy. Second, it is part of a cage and frame strategy to undermine feminist progress.  </p>
<p>Cage and frame is designed to take an entire collection of discussions out of the public discourse. You take all of, say, women&#8217;s rights issues and put them in a rhetorical cage allowing out only one token issue which you then frame in a fashion most advantageous to you and begin yelling and screaming about it at the top of your lungs. Your opponent now has a choice, fight vigorously and use up all the money, energy, and media attention on this one issue or lose on the issue and give momentum and framing power to the other side.  </p>
<p>When you take the bait, the mainstream sees the vigorous, red-faced discussants and assumes that there is fair and open debate on all issues thereby killing all possible progress on any other issue. You can see this rhetorical strategy on immigration, the environment, education, and many other places, but nowhere is it more effective in sucking all the oxygen out of the room than here.</p>
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		<title>By: jerri</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/18/the-hole-gets-deeper-the-faithful-keep-digging/comment-page-1/#comment-549603</link>
		<dc:creator>jerri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:21:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=2884#comment-549603</guid>
		<description>The Faithful have become the sole advocate for the unfertilized egg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Faithful have become the sole advocate for the unfertilized egg.</p>
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		<title>By: paradoctor</title>
		<link>http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/18/the-hole-gets-deeper-the-faithful-keep-digging/comment-page-1/#comment-549602</link>
		<dc:creator>paradoctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mahablog.com/?p=2884#comment-549602</guid>
		<description>I recommend that we clarify terms. First note that &#039;conservatism&#039; is a misnomer; it does not conserve. What we are up against is radical rightism; nowadays it is the left that is conservative. 

&#039;Pro-life&#039; is another misnomer. Most anti-abortionists are also pro-gun and pro-war; so their commitment to the sanctity of life is conditional. There are in theory some &#039;seamless garment&#039; pro-lifers, against abortion, guns, war, the death penalty, and so on; but in practice even they must compromise with violence, to live in the world as it is. In practice all life must compromise with violence, to live in the world as it is. In the final analysis, there is no such thing as a pro-lifer. 

And as for America, it&#039;s clear this country leans both pro-abortion and pro-guns. Call it liberty, call it savagery, it&#039;s what we are, deal with it. 

And I agree with you, maha, about the dispositionals and the ideologues. In the end, the cynics always get the fanatics under control. It&#039;s inevitable.  But... it can take awhile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recommend that we clarify terms. First note that &#8216;conservatism&#8217; is a misnomer; it does not conserve. What we are up against is radical rightism; nowadays it is the left that is conservative. </p>
<p>&#8216;Pro-life&#8217; is another misnomer. Most anti-abortionists are also pro-gun and pro-war; so their commitment to the sanctity of life is conditional. There are in theory some &#8217;seamless garment&#8217; pro-lifers, against abortion, guns, war, the death penalty, and so on; but in practice even they must compromise with violence, to live in the world as it is. In practice all life must compromise with violence, to live in the world as it is. In the final analysis, there is no such thing as a pro-lifer. </p>
<p>And as for America, it&#8217;s clear this country leans both pro-abortion and pro-guns. Call it liberty, call it savagery, it&#8217;s what we are, deal with it. </p>
<p>And I agree with you, maha, about the dispositionals and the ideologues. In the end, the cynics always get the fanatics under control. It&#8217;s inevitable.  But&#8230; it can take awhile.</p>
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