Veep Debate Live Blog

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Mittens, Obama-Biden

I refuse to listen to the pre-debate commentary on teevee, but you can begin commenting here if you like. I’ll start the live blog at 9 o’clock.

* Well, it’s 9 o’clock. Wish us luck.

* Joe Biden says the last thing we need is another war.

* There’s a split screen on MSNBC that shows Biden reacting to Ryan.

* I want Biden to call Ryan out for saying anyone is “apologizing for our values.”

* There is no subsidy of abortion in Obamacare.

* Well, Ryan was clear about something. He wants to criminalize abortion.

* Ryan is anti-abortion because of reason and science?

* I think Joe is doing well so far. I like the question to Ryan, how will you change minds in two months.

* 47 PERCENT! Joe got it in!

Sic ‘em, Joe. He’s on a roll.

Ryan is saying the economy is getting worse, and I don’t think that’s what people are feeling now.

Is Ryan even making sense now?

*Show me a policy!

WE DIDN’T SPEND MONEY ON ELECTRIC CARS IN FINLAND!

No, Social Security is not going bankrupt.

Sorry I’m not posting; I’m having a good time watching this.

Privatizing social security!

Who do you trust.

Oh, is Ryan leaving himself open.

No, he doesn’t have the specifics. He has a framework, no details.

Push him on the math.

How is American foreign policy “unraveling”? Does it seem that way?

Ryan is smacked down on Afghanistan.

Ryan is not making sense. We’re supposed to work with our allies but he doesn’t want to wait for allies.

If we don’t get to women’s issues there is going to be a of griping, but that would be the moderator’s fault.

Ah ha! abortion!

Joe said “forcible rape.”

47 PERCENT!

Ryan has been neither a convincing wonk nor a convincing salesman. He comes across as a callow little twerp.

Well, Chris Matthews is happy. Should everybody be happy?

* Twitter is alight with calls for Martha Raddatz to take over Meet the Press. And with that I will sign off for the night. See you tomorrow!

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76 Comments

76 Comments

  1. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:09 pm

    Weird debate format. Munster Malfoy gets to say a bunch of factually fanciful crap and then get a different question from Raddatz, without letting Joe answer.

    “With all due respects, that’s a bunch of malarkey.”

    Yeah, let the old man talk!

  2. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:14 pm

    Wait, doesn’t Joe get to deal with the “apology” question?

    At least we got Ryan acknowledging that pissing on dead bodies is worth an apology, whatever he means by “standing up for our values.”

  3. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:14 pm

    Yikes, Ryan on Iran’s nuke capability. Sounds like a bunch of malarkey to me! Even former security chiefs in Israel disagree with what he’s saying.

  4. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:16 pm

    “We wanna prevent war.” Smug smirking little f*ck. Gawd.

  5. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:17 pm

    Ryan claims a Romney administration will have “credibility” for a peaceful solution in Iran. Um, how? What?

    Joe sounds like he knows what he’s talking about on Iranian weapons. Like the “loose talk” line.

  6. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:19 pm

    What the Ayatollah sees… my friend Bibi (ecch)… well OK, go, Joe!

  7. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:23 pm

    Joe slams Ryan on the view from the ‘ayatollah’s point of view”.

    OOOh, “facts matter”. Nice.

  8. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:25 pm

    YAY! 47 PERCENT!!!

    Joe’s on fire!

  9. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:25 pm

    47%! Drink!

  10. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:27 pm

    From 8.5% to 10% all over the country?! Absolute, massive LIE.

  11. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:28 pm

    Uh oh Paul, don’t talk about a family car-crash tragedy at Christmas. And how wonderfully charitable Mitt is.

  12. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:29 pm

    Romney’s a car guy? WTF?

    And then he’s a guy who pays for injured kids to go to college?

    Upward mobility? Riiiight.

  13. justme277  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:32 pm

    One word…JOEMENTUM!

  14. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:35 pm

    “I wish he would just….be a little more candid” Nice way to obviously veer away from calling him a liar outright.

    I don’t think Ryan is making any converts tonight, but he’s not a disaster like Palin. Raddatz seems to me to be interrupting Biden’s rolls, and letting Ryan’s go unchecked. Not consciously biased, but some.

  15. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:38 pm

    Raddatz seems to me to be interrupting Biden’s rolls, and letting Ryan’s go unchecked.

    I noticed that too. But Joe’s getting wound up now, and at times Martha just has to shut up and let him roll.

  16. erinyes  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:40 pm

    Biden’s tannin’ Paulie’s hide, GO JOE!!

  17. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:41 pm

    I hope everyone is watching it split screen the way MSNBC has it. Watching Joe while Ryan is talking is priceless.

  18. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:42 pm

    Joe looking at the camera, good idea. Interrupting and laughing, not so good. He needs to turn to the camera and say: “Everyone, fact-check the heck out of this guy’s claims. Write a note to yourself and do it in the morning! Medicare, Social Security, Iran, the stimulus, all of it. FACT CHECK HIM. He’s not being truthful.”

  19. Zinsky  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:43 pm

    Biden is ripping this reptile a new bunghole!

  20. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:43 pm

    Bill Maher just tweeted “Hello, 911. There’s an old man beating a child on my TV.”

  21. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:45 pm

    Bill Maher just tweeted “Hello, 911. There’s an old man beating a child on my TV.”

    Nothing else. Just bears repeating.

  22. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:50 pm

    Arrrgh. The “there aren’t enough rich people to tax” dodge.

    AAANnd, he attaches the “small business” crap.

    At least he’s “dancin’ with the one what brung him”, and not disavowing all knowledge like Romney.

    And now Raddatz is asking for the details. Good for her!

  23. Zinsky  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:51 pm

    When is someone going to call these assholes on the lie that small businesses pay the highest tax rate? They don’t!!!

  24. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:52 pm

    Lloyd Bentsen moment! DRINK!

  25. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:54 pm

    Joe: “I was there when Reagan …” Nice. And then he points out the hedge funds are “small businesses”.

    Joe’s getting a lot of mileage out of having been in the room back when Reagan and Tip O’Neill did their mythic deal. And I’m going to believe the old man on what has happened historically instead of that teenager.

  26. Porlock Junior  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:54 pm

    Damn! Can’t anybody, meaning obviously Biden, just mention a little bit the the difference between top tax rate and the percentage of total income you pay? It does make a difference, and pointing it out would make it a little hard for Ryan to get away with back-to-back cites of top rates here and a world average percent of total income paid in tax.

  27. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:55 pm

    Yikes, now Martha is debating Ryan! About military “cuts.”

  28. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @9:56 pm

    One nuclear aircraft carrier is worth more than the entire US Navy before WWI. This making the Navy smaller line is complete cr*p.

  29. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:04 pm

    What? They agree with the timeline, but they don’t want to give the enemy a date. Riiight.

    And what is this whole “unravelling” meme he keeps mentioning? Does anyone understand why they believe that things are just coming apart in our foreign policy? Does the Arab Spring freak them out that much? From where I sit, the Obama foreign policy seems much more coherent and organized than the Bush one.

  30. Porlock Junior  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:09 pm

    Goshamighty, here’s a guy arguing against plunging into a war for the fun of it. It seems Syria is not the same as Libya! Hoodathunk?

  31. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:11 pm

    What is Ryan talking about? Russia and the UN and Syria?

  32. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:12 pm

    “We would not be going thru the UN.”

    YAH! BOOYAH! YOU ESS EH! YOU ESS EH!

    wtf?! Unilaterally do what to Syria, dimwit?!

  33. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:14 pm

    Munster Malfoy thinks he’s found his very own personal Saddam! Every worthless leader needs a bete noire, like the Bushes had.

  34. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:17 pm

    Oh Joe, nail him on the contraception insurance versus practice of faith lie.

  35. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:19 pm

    “Bean”? Is he calling his daughter a vegetable?

    I find the whole discussion of people’s personal faith distasteful in the political context, but I have to say I find Joe’s discussion seems more heartfelt and honest than Ryan’s.

  36. Bill B.  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:20 pm

    Biden has left Ryan looking young and inexperienced. Ryan is doing a good job, though on letting the Pope establish Vatican sharia in the USA. He sounds so sincere about his concern for the unborn from conception. Of course, I’m reminded of Monty Python’s “Every Sperm Is Sacred” song, with infants falling out and being kicked to the side until the house is so full that the children must be sold for “medical experiments” because Da cannot have a vasectomy, as that would be a sin.

  37. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:25 pm

    Ryan summation: Lie lie lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie….

    Simon & Garfunkel fan! I never would’ve guessed.

  38. Porlock Junior  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:26 pm

    Yeah, just as Kerry’s talk of his religion had real content and feeling. And the unanimous choice of Winner in that one was Bush, whose platitudes were Sincere.

  39. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:32 pm

    Oh lordy, 1950s style hokey Vote-for-My-Running-Mate speech in Ryan’s closing. AWFUL!

  40. Swami  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:36 pm

    Wow, Biden mopped the floor with Paulie…

  41. joanr16  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:41 pm

    Now it all depends on whether the Prez can carry the baton next Tuesday.

    Well, night y’all, it’s been fun. Hasta manana!

  42. Doug Hughes  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:41 pm

    I thought Joe scored when he emphasized that he personally accepted the doctrine of the Catholic church that life starts at conception, but he would not impose that doctrine on all Americans, many of who are NOT Catholic.

    Joe missed a shot when Ryan said that he would take the issue away from unelected judges and let it be decided by popular vote – that the most democratic option is to let women decide – and only allow state intervention when the fetus is ‘viable’.

  43. Tom_B  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:45 pm

    “…but he would not impose that doctrine on all Americans, many of who are NOT Catholic. ”

    Right on!

    Joe was SUPERB. I really, really, really thought he kick Ryan’s butt– and he did!

  44. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:48 pm

    Hee-hee. Just saw an S.E. Cupp tweet that called it a draw, but said Ryan won on style, because Biden looked “unhinged.” Well, I guess she knows about looking unhinged! Haw!

  45. biggerbox  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:55 pm

    Wow, watching the MSNBC scroll of tweets is hypnotic. The GOP spinmeisters are hard at work, but not very convincing.

  46. maha  •  Oct 11, 2012 @10:56 pm

    From now on Ryan will be strapped to the top of the campaign bus.

  47. Swami  •  Oct 11, 2012 @11:04 pm

    They sent poor little paulie out to do battle armed only with a script..I almost felt sad for him. Every dodge,home spun tale, diversion and deceit that Paulie threw up was knocked down or swept aside with a fury.. Paulie recieved the rod of correction.

    I liked the ending where the moderator asked what do you “personally” give to the American people.. and Paulie launched into his Obama routine..Talk about going off on a tangent. Paulie got his mask really, really, ripped off.
    I hope the people of Wisconsin were paying attention. How did the Bean relate to anything?

  48. Swami  •  Oct 11, 2012 @11:07 pm

    I think Paulie is going to be strapped to the front bumper.

  49. Swami  •  Oct 11, 2012 @11:15 pm

    Paulie didn’t even mention John Galt..Oh, the humanity!

  50. Swami  •  Oct 11, 2012 @11:20 pm

    I thought Joe scored when he emphasized that he personally accepted the doctrine of the Catholic church that life starts at conception, but he would not impose that doctrine on all Americans, many of who are NOT Catholic.

    Yeah,Doug..Big score for Biden and the American public.

  51. justme277  •  Oct 11, 2012 @11:49 pm

    “Oh so you Kennedy now?”….clean up isle 2!. Paulie should not have worn sponge bob square pants panties to a boxer / brief discussion.

    Just one thing about the life starts at conception thing..I have been thinking(heaven help us) that up to this point it has been acceptable to point the finger at
    women..and I have come to the conclusion that when men are forced by law to stop masterbating because they are killing life all this f’ing nonsense would be OVER THAT DAY.Make them baby killers to everytime they want to “release the hounds” anyplace that could not end in conception. In one occurance one could become a mass baby killer…but suggesting THAT would be an outrage now wouldn’t it? Men , ask yourself, how many innocent lives have you taken(or left) by this insane logic? Welcome to our world.

  52. moonbat  •  Oct 12, 2012 @12:03 am

    Laughing Joe Steals the Show:

    Big Bird has a new replacement, and his name is “Laughing Joe.”

    Vice President Joe Biden’s chuckles, sighs and interruptions during the first and only vice presidential debate with Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., took off on the Internet during the debate.

    Within minutes, a new @LaughinJoeBiden Twitter handle emerged and it added hundreds of followers every minute.

    By an hour into the debate, more than 4,700 users followed the parody account which tweeted out photos and animated gifs of Biden’s laugh, punctuated by “lol.”…

    I’ve been so sick of wingnuts making fun of Biden over the years – glad to see he got the last laugh.

  53. c u n d gulag  •  Oct 12, 2012 @6:40 am

    Joe was GREAT!
    But Ryan didn’t have an epic meltdown. He stuck to his script, and didn’t do himself or Romney any great harm.

    I think both sides will think their candidate won.
    Joe was fiesty and detailed. Paulie was dreamy, repetative, and vague.

    But the real winner was Martha Raddatz. She was great!

    You want to make the Sunday gabfests relevant again?
    Give Martha ABC’s Sunday gabfest, and have Rachel Maddow get Meet the Press. And find someone to replace General Robert E. Lee’s military correspondent Bob Schieffer on CBS. Maybe they can get Chris Hayes to come over from MSNBC.

    This way, Shieffer can go to the Old Reporters Home and interview the retirees, George Vowel-a-lot-alous can keep interviewing vacuous celebrities in the morning, and Disco Dancin’ Dave Gregory can get the job he was born for: announcing the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show – where his greatest weakness wouldn’t be so evident, since no one would expect him to ask follow-up questions of the canine winners and losers.

  54. erinyes  •  Oct 12, 2012 @7:08 am

    Great summary, ‘Gulag.
    More likely Ryan will be locked in the trunk & the tail pipe re-routed.

  55. c u n d gulag  •  Oct 12, 2012 @7:41 am

    erinyes,
    Biden SOOOOOOOO destroyed Paulie last night, that I think Mitt is calling his Mormons together to get ready to start baptizing his poor running mate.

  56. c u n d gulag  •  Oct 12, 2012 @7:51 am

    Biden v. Ryan also reminded me of Hawkeye v. Frank in M.A.S.H.

  57. joanr16  •  Oct 12, 2012 @8:50 am

    Hawkeye v. Frank

    Yes! Excellent! And, sometimes, Col. Potter v Frank, although Biden was rarely that sanguine.

    Of course, the MSM will end up calling this one a “tie.”

  58. c u n d gulag  •  Oct 12, 2012 @8:53 am

    Also too – Biden used the term “my friend here,” kind of like Southerners use “Well, bless your soul,” as the lead in to the knife thrust through the heart.

  59. c u n d gulag  •  Oct 12, 2012 @8:57 am

    joan,
    Cup O’ Schmoe and crew are doing their best.
    It really is masterful. It is THE show to watch to see what the Villagers are babbling and gossiping about today.

    And about a half hour ago, Joe brought in “my friend here,” Joe Klein, and, “bless his heart,” he went right for the ‘both sides won and both sides lost’ which is the default position of all DC Villagers as soon as they’ve had hit “Restart” by drinking their morning’s first cup of coffee.

  60. erinyes  •  Oct 12, 2012 @8:58 am

    Biden IS a strong closer; Ryan? Not so much.
    God, it was like watching a favorite uncle tear down the town chump-assed punk.

  61. joanr16  •  Oct 12, 2012 @8:58 am

    My sister-in-law used to have a standup routine (for real; she used to do standup), about her aunt’s passive-aggressive saying: “God love him.” Yeah, God love ya, Paulie! And another one: You’re a piece of work, son.

  62. joanr16  •  Oct 12, 2012 @9:01 am

    Gulag, CNN leads with: “Well, call it a draw.”

    Dear Jeebus, I hates me some CNN. How do they not snap their necks clean in two, playing both sides against the middle like that?

  63. moonbat  •  Oct 12, 2012 @9:13 am

    Ryan didn’t have a meltdown, so in the MSM’s mind, it’s a tie.

    Hawkeye vs Frank – I read an interview of the late, great Larry Linville (actor who played Frank Burns). He said “it’s a lot of work to play an idiot”. Ryan’s a natural at it.

  64. c u n d gulag  •  Oct 12, 2012 @9:19 am

    CNN takes no stances – and all stances.
    It is the “Cowardly News Network.”

    I have more respect for FOX.
    Sure, they look at politics through their own particular pair of beer goggles, but that’s better than the Cowardly News Network, CNN, which puts on blinders that don’t let them see the whole picture, it only lets them see things through the DC Villager lenses of “both sides… blah-dee-blah-blah-blah.”

    Somewhere, Ted Turner is hoping someone kills him soon, just so he can spin in his grave 24 X 7 X 365, like the network he created spins horsesh*t out of horse race results.

  65. Swami  •  Oct 12, 2012 @9:38 am

    Paulie’s we don’t want the enemy to know when we’re leaving Afghanistan statement was beyond lame..That is so played out.!The Taliban was there before we got there, and will be there after we’re gone.

  66. c u n d gulag  •  Oct 12, 2012 @9:45 am

    There were SOOOO many great moments.

    Like when Paulie said Mitt was a ‘car guy!”

    Biden could have said, “Yeah, if you say so. But if he really was a ‘car guy,’ wouldn’t he have been more interested in rebuilding Detroit, than in putting elevators for cars in his newest mansion?”

  67. erinyes  •  Oct 12, 2012 @9:50 am

    So right, Swami; we can’t let the “taliban” know our plans.
    The headline should read “old hand spanks young gun”; shit, I’m 58 and my “guns” make his look sad….

  68. c u n d gulag  •  Oct 12, 2012 @11:02 am

    From the indispensable Charles Pierce – the definitive take-down of Paulie:

    http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/paul-ryan-debate-joe-biden-13626962

    And Mr. Pierce’s final lines will not be topped for a long, long, time.
    And then, it will only be done by him.

  69. c u n d gulag  •  Oct 12, 2012 @11:07 am

    erinyes,
    My favorite part of the picture is of Paulies stork-legs.

    Looks like he only wanted to get the upper-body DVD of that workout program, and cancelled out on the rest – but still got to keep the gifts that came with ordering it: a tube of ‘Man-tan” and a cheap baseball cap, with the sissy-band head-size adjustor, and not pre-sized, like the ones we manly-men wear.

  70. biggerbox  •  Oct 12, 2012 @11:58 am

    Well, the morning coverage on Nice Polite Republican radio was arranged to make it seem like a draw, with a lot of emphasis on where Biden didn’t do so well, and carefully avoided mention of Ryan’s mistakes. My favorite circumlocution was when a correspondent couldn’t just come out and say that YES Ryan was wrong. “The answer is not no,” she said as she quickly moved on.

  71. c u n d gulag  •  Oct 12, 2012 @12:20 pm

    One last thing before everyone gets tired of my input:

    Paulie showed his sociopathic quality in one particular moment.

    It was when he was trying to think of an empathetic story to tell about his fellow sociopath, Mitt.
    And, there he is sitting across from Joe Biden, and what pops into his head? He tells some story about how kind Mitt was to some family in his church who lost family members IN A CAR ACCIDENT!
    HE TELLS THAT STORY IN FRONT OF POOR JOE BIDEN!
    Joe Biden?
    Joe Biden, who lost his wife and daughter in a car accident when Paulie was still in shorts, and his father showing him how to shove firecrackers up frogs asses, to get a laugh out of his “serious little feller?”
    Did he do that by accident?
    Some weird cognitive connection?
    Or, did he mention that story to throw Joe off his game?

    Either way, it’s like sitting across from Jackie Kennedy and tellling her about how a friend of friend got shot in in the head in a case of road rage down in Texas.

    What, no stories of compassionate Mitt with a person from church with cancer, so he has to fall back on some fatal car accident?
    WTF?!?!?!

  72. joanr16  •  Oct 12, 2012 @1:05 pm

    He tells some story about how kind Mitt was to some family in his church who lost family members IN A CAR ACCIDENT! HE TELLS THAT STORY IN FRONT OF POOR JOE BIDEN!

    Yeah, and worse still, Ryan’s tragedy also happened at Christmastime, just like the Bidens’ car accident. My jaw dropped in that moment also (see 9:28 pm comment above). I thought, Is it possible Ryan has never heard about the Bidens’ tragedy? Or is he just stupid?

    I guess there’s stupid as in not knowing that the Earth revolves around the Sun, and then there’s a kind of emotional stupidity where one doesn’t understand how one’s words or actions can inflict pain on others. I sensed a lot of the latter coming off Ryan last night. Unlike Sarah Palin or George W. Bush, he can feign verbal intelligence. But his emotional intelligence is nil. His “bean” story about abortion struck me as another glaring example. It was so pointless, considering it was meant to justify a governmental imposition of religion that will claim women’s lives. Apparently Ryan intended to strike a sentimental chord, but ended up just sounding self-centered and insensitive.

  73. joanr16  •  Oct 12, 2012 @1:09 pm

    it’s like sitting across from Jackie Kennedy and tellling her about how a friend of friend got shot in in the head

    (When my comment about the Biden accident gets out of moderation, you can read that too….)

    I’m reminded of a story Carly Simon once told, about how she unthinkingly asked Jackie if she’d seen Oliver Stone’s film JFK, and then immediately wanted to vanish into a hole in the ground.

  74. joanr16  •  Oct 12, 2012 @1:11 pm

    OK, I now have two comments stuck in penalty box. They’re great comments. Just sayin’.

  75. moonbat  •  Oct 12, 2012 @1:33 pm

    I’m certain Ryan knew about Biden’s particular tragedy. If he didn’t – he had pretty lousy coaching. What I don’t know is, whether this was an attempt to unhinge Joe, or whether it was just the kind of thing (like the Carly Simon/Jackie Kennedy) that pops out of one’s head under stress.

  76. Porlock Junior  •  Oct 12, 2012 @3:03 pm

    @ c u n d–

    “…to throw Joe off his game?”

    Now THAT is almost the funniest thing you’ve said here! What’s worse, it could well be true.

    What with two Irish Catholics on stage, this reminds me of the time James Thurber heard a rendition of “Molly Malone” on the radio one Saint Patrick’s day — and it was cleaned up with a happy ending.

    On reflection he decided that it was a misguided effort not to dampen the spirits of the Irish on St Patrick’s day. A colleague (a Mr Sullivan? I forget) set him straight: Nothing can dampen the spirits of the Irish on St Patrick’s Day.



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