A few days ago Matt Yglesias said a true thing —
Protecting Israel is a special project taken on by the United States. The reasons may be good and bad, but it’s a burden we undertake. Israel does us no favors and is no use to us. Recognizing that fact hardly solves the decades-long Arab-Israeli conflict, but it ought to be the starting point for what Americans should debate–not Israel’s policy toward its Palestinian subjects but America’s policy toward Israel.
This is something that needs to be acknowledged — that for all the heat and passion many Americans pour into support for Israel, there’s nothing about Israel that qualifies it as an exceptionally critical interest for the United States. And this has nothing to do with being “for” or “against” Israel; it’s just an acknowledgment that the U.S. gets nothing out of whatever deal we’ve made with Israel.
The United States gives the country billions in aid. Indeed, it is the largest recipient of American foreign assistance in the world, even though it’s neither a poor country nor a large one. Netanyahu explained that his country and ours are such good friends because “we stand together to defend democracy.”
But, as Matt points out, Israel contributes nothing to international efforts toward democracy, including peacekeeping efforts around the globe. There are other small countries, such as The Netherlands, doing their bit, but not Israel. Israel looks out for Israel. There’s nothing wrong with that; Israel has particular problems that The Netherlands does not. But let’s stop kidding ourselves that the U.S. relationship with Israel is of any particular benefit to anyone but Israel.
Matt says something else that I’ve also noticed, but which doesn’t get said much — fervent Zionism in the West is less and less about courting the “Jewish vote,” because western Jews are not of one mind on Israel. Certainly there are Jewish Zionists, but western Jews more often are hugely ambivalent about the situation in Israel and are not knee-jerk supporters of whatever the government of Israel does.
This led to the (Catholic) Rep. Joe Walsh (R-IL) complaining that “too many American Jews are not as pro-Israel as they should be.” I don’t want to presume to speak for American Jews, but they might say they are plenty pro-Israel; they just aren’t necessarily pro-Netanyahu.
Further, recent demographic trends are rendering Israel into something quite different from the enclave of western values many Americans want to believe it is.
Matt has written a couple of posts about post-Jewish Zionism, pointing out that the real engine driving knee-jerk support for Netanyahu is Christian Zionism mixed with Islamophobia.
The existence of Christian Zionists is, of course, not new. But what is new is that Israeli politics has drifted toward the hawkish right over the past ten years even as Jewish Americans remain on the progressive left. That change in Israeli politics, meanwhile, has been in part driven by a demographic shift away from the kind of secular ashkenazi Jews who predominate in the American population. At the same time, Christian Zionist sentiment has boomed in America and the Palestinian cause has never been less popular among America’s overwhelmingly non-Jewish population.
This is all part of what I’ve called the trend toward post-Jewish Zionism. That’s not to say that there are no Jewish Zionists in the United States (or Canada, etc.) but merely to observe that Jews as such are decreasingly relevant to the politics of Israel. In Europe, too, we’re seeing a boom of far-right parties (True Finns, Geert Wilders’ Freedom Party, the Danish People’s Party) with strong pro-Israel stands. And why shouldn’t there be? An Israeli government whose policies are based on putting zero moral weight on the welfare of Arabs is a natural partner for xenophobic anti-Muslim parties who appeal more to Europe’s local sociocultural majorities than to its small Jewish communities.
As the first commenter says,
Factoring out the Christian eschatology, post-Jewish Zionism, in either North America or Europe, is essentially about living vicariously through Israel as it fulfills their forbidden desire – to put a bunch of Muslims in a giant cage and shoot into it.
A lot of us have been critical of Israel not because we are anti-Israel, but because we think recent policies of the government of Israel are reckless and self-destructive and not in the best long-term interests either of Israel or the United States. The zealots will not listen to this, of course.
Update — See “Ass-Backwards in the Middle East.”
Good one, Maha.
I’ve never understood why unquestioning fervent support for all of the government of Israel’s actions has become not only de rigeur but politically untouchable, to a degree not seen with any other country. Perhaps it has less to do with actual votes than with the real currency in DC, campaign donations.
Pogo summed it all up best:
“We have met the enemy and it is us.”
We become what we hate and fear.
And not just Israel, which I’ll get to in a moment, but the US, too.
Over the last 80 years, we have seen this over and over again. And it’s the same group of people.
We had Neo-Fascists here in America in the ’30’s. They were interspersed with isololationists, who basically said let Europe take it’s course – which, if not an outright approval of what was happening in Italy, Germany and Spain, was at least an attempt to avert their eyes. They saw, in Fascism’s unholy marriage of business and government, huge profits to be made for both – until of course, in the end, it didn’t. It ended in disaster for both, with 10’s of millions of people killed, murdered, injured, and displaced.
And this same Pro-Fascism group then led the way in Anti-Communism. Business was run by the government, hence no profits. And that’s a key difference. And while they/we railed against Communimsm in the USSR and China, which were in no way, shape, or form, really Communist as defined by Marx, but more like authoritarian government based on cults of personality. As far as repression of their people, they weren’t much different from the Fascist governments that we and they warred against.
And we have become more like the USSR and China over the past 6+ decades. We are now much more authoritarian. And as for cult’s of personality, anyone who’s been around this country and doesn’t have blinkers on, can recognise the Reagan and Little Boots adminstrations as examples of that cult behaviour.
There are many more similarities, but that’s for another comment on another post.
And, as has America become what we once hated and feared, so too has Israel. I’ll take a beating for writing this, but it’s the way I see it.
Israel, after gaining independence, fought to maintain and protect itself. And even attacked in a defensive way, if that’s possible – at least they had a much better reason, and did it far better than we did with Iraq.
But in the decades since, Israel, like Germany, has either purposefully, or by averting their eyes, allowed what can only be described as “Lebensraum.” And their treatment of the Palestinians has been hidious. They’ll say it’s with cause, and I can’t argue that point. But, how much bloodshed could have been avoided if Israel had followed the 3-state solution that everyone knows is the only rational policy, and has thought that for decades? How much was ‘tit-for-tat?’
I have supported Israel in my life. Sent money. Donated trees. But what I see now is an aggressor, apartheid nation, where ‘defense in the cause of Israel, is no vice.’
They look more and more like the Nazi’s they despise. They are a military state, with excellently trained troops. They have allowed settlers, if not promoted them outright, into lands that were traditionally Palestinian.
They are running an apartheid state, and can soon no longer be considered a representative democracy if they do not allow the Palestinians their say. But they can’t allow them to have any say because they will soon be outnumbered by the Palestinians. A 2-state solution is in the best interests of all, except for the politicians, and the business interests for whom the present system works just fine politically and financially.
Americans once supported Israel because they were the only democracy in the Middle East. Now, if that’s democracy, I’d hate to see what an oppresive regime would look like.
And today, many of the people supporting Israel do it for no other reason than that they need there to be an Israel to fulfill their dreamed for apocalypce.
The sooner that Irael realizes that the support for them lies not in their policies, but in the anticipated and hoped for annihilation of the state and the people to make way for some Christian fantasy.
You become what you hate an fear. You can change that if you want to. But you have to want to. But there’s too much money and power in the status quo (from both sides, btw) – and until people realize that, there’ll be no end to the bloodshed.
Democracy? Not according to Naomi Klein. Israel’s legal system, which has different laws and even roads for Israelis and Palestinians living in the West Bank and which grants and denies citizen rights based largely on religious affiliation meets the international definition of apartheid. (Of course, I’m beginning the smell the stench of a kind of forced apartheid in America, so perhaps our blind of support of Israel isn’t as blind as I think.)
I hereby promise to proof-read my comments from this day forward. What a mess the above is!
People who compare Israel to Nazi Germany are either abysmally ignorant clowns who lack the most basic reasoning skills, or malicious assholes. People who call Israel an “apartheld” state should explain how that epithet squares with 2 facts: (1) the million or so Palestinians who live in Israel are Israeli citizens with full participation in the political system; and (2) the Palestinians who live outside Israel do not claim Israeli citizenship.
Please review commenting rules. Another outburst like that will get you banned from this site.
Before you continue to call my readers ignorant, educate yourself by reading two of the articles linked in the post: “Same Netanyahu, Different Israel” by Daniel Levy, published in Foreign Affairs; and “Ass-Backward in the Middle East” by Ira Chernus, published at TomDispatch.
In short, this ain’t your grandpa’s Israel. Israel is becoming less democratic and more oppressive of minorities, and continuing down this road could be self-destructive for Israel. If you care about the survival of the state of Israel you should educate yourself and stop assuming that the government of Israel is always right.
apartheid, not apartheld. Darn.
Gator – Klein was referring to the West Bank and I don’t understand your #2. Could you explain, please?
It is refreshing to see that being critical of Israeli politics is becoming less about anti-semitism and more about being a humanitarian.
I really liked you comment, Gulag; it covers almost every aspect of the situation.
When I was in high school, there was an ad on T.V.; “come to Israel, come stay with friends”. That ad was airing around the time of the Munich Olympics when the Israeli athletes were murdered by Palistinian “terrorists” which shocked the free world. Since that time, there has been a concerted effort to paint everything Arab and Muslim as evil and backward.Things are changing.
I think the Israelis realize this, and they know this so called “Arab Spring” will dramatically change the dynamic in the Levant, and change the way the world sees Israel. Israel can no longer bludgeon Palistine and claim victimhood.
At least the people of Egypt, Tunisia, and Libya are now gaining sympathy in their struggles to throw off tyrants, and are no longer simply “sand niggers” or Muslim zealots.
There is a long road ahead, but I hope we can see some real change in the near future. This has been going on for far too long, and I realize why George Mitchell resigned his position.Semitic people are hard negiotators, inject religion and fierce nationalism into the mix, and you have a crazy situation.
Gator90,
I am neither ‘an ignorant clown who lacks the most basic reasoning skills, ‘nor “a malicious asshole. I am merely expressing my opinion. You’re free, of course, to disagree, and we can have a discussion. However, calling someone an either “an ignorant clown,” or “a malicious asshole,” is not really a propitious way to initiate a converstion.
But first, the definition by Free Dictionary:
a·part·heid (-pärtht, -ht)
n.
1. An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites.
2. A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.
3. The condition of being separated from others; segregation.
Works for me. Though, obviously not the first definition.
I might guess that you consider yourself an expert, Gator90, so what do you think Israel is doing, and will do, as the Palestinians who live in Israel begin to near and then outnumber the Jewish people there?
This enquiring mind wants to know.
And even if you don’t consider yourself an expert, please feel free to give me your side – sans the usual FOX and right wing radio talking point. I’ve heard more of them than I care to already.
Gator – and resorting to ad hominems only weakens an argument.
Typos, typo’s, typo’s. I think I have more of them in the last comment than I have in a month.
Sorry…
Great posting, and some eye opening thinking at that Foreign Affairs article you reference. Maybe we’re starting to move past the cartoonish view of things that’s been with us for way too long.
Check out Obama’s Quiet Victory:
So here’s hoping that people like Netanyahu are becoming less relevant, and that despite the demographic changes in Israel, younger generations can move forward and figure out a way to coexist.
Gator90, you appear to be conveniently ignoring all the territory Israel controls through settlement, frequent military incursion, or ongoing military occupation, that is not officially part of Israel and has a large Palestinian population. Daily life in those areas does in fact closely resemble life in apartheid South Africa (for whom Israel was a rare friend).
The point is, Israel doesn’t have to behave that way. We’re no friend to Israel when we excuse or ignore its worst behavior, and fail to encourage its best.
Gator,’gulag did not write that Israel is like Nazi Germany, but said they are headed down the road the Nazis took. If you take into consideration what has happened since Netanyahu took over, and how Israeli politics is trending, I think you will see that it does not bode well for a viable peace agreement, and the “settlements” will expand.(when “settlements” were baned, they built “outposts”, I guess “Happy sites” will be next.
As far as calling Israel an apartheid state, well they do have “Jewish only” areas, including roadways, and a big ol’ wall that keeps out potential “terrorists”; and I’m quite sure we will never see an Arab-Israeli elected Prime Minister.
It is a “Jewish State”, not an “Arab State”.Kindly consult a current map showing Jewish Israeli areas and Arab Israeli areas.
Well done Cundgulag!
Thanks for the support everyone! 🙂
To all:
I am Jewish. Israel/Nazi analogies piss me off, hence my language. I think it is a cheap, nasty way to “score points.” As soon as I see the word “Nazi” (or transparent variations like “lebensraum”) in this context, I think “asshole.”
It really should be possible to describe Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians as bad, terrible, wrong, illegal, immoral, reprehensible, double plus ungood, and/or some seriously fucked-up shit, WITHOUT comparing it, explicitly or implicitly, to the extermination of one third of the global Jewish population in less than a decade. It is truly incredible to me that this concept requires explanation.
The obvious purpose of the “apartheid” epithet is to compare Israel to apartheid-era South Africa. This comparison doesn’t make me mad but I think it is specious. I’m no expert on anything, but I believe the crux of South African apartheid was to deny citizenship and general freedoms based on race. Since a million Palestinians live in Israel with citizenship and civil rights, it is self-evidently not a racial issue. (Cund gulag, I’ve no idea what Israel will do in the future. And I don’t watch Fox News, except occasionally when my father-in-law subjects me to it, nor listen to talk radio.) If the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza wished to be citizens of Israel (with all rights thereunto appertaining), I might buy the apartheid analogy at least in part, but I’m not aware that they do.
Erinyes, I believe that there have a lot fewer murders of Israeli civilians since the wall was built, and I think that’s a good thing.
Maha: I was unaware of the rules and shall do my best to comply in any future comments, assuming I am not banned. However, I stand by my characterization of Israel/Nazi analogies, which are indeed profoundly ignorant when not malicious.
As soon as someone actually makes such an analogy, you have a right to complain. However, I agree with c u n d gulag that Israel is in grave danger of going down that road. And I say that with sadness, not maliciousness.
Gator90,
There, that’s better.
I can appreciate your points, and where you’re coming from. And I’m glad to hear back from you.
Sorry if it seemed that way, but I didn’t accuse you of watching FOX, or listening to right wing talk radio, but too often people come here to criticize, and all they have when asked to defend their points are the same shopworn crap you read, hear, and see, everywhere. You certainly didn’t do that.
My point was that, if not careful, we as individuals, groups, and nations, slowly come to resemble that which once was the sum of all our fears.
America is now closer to being like the USSR and China now than we were since the late ’50’s and the Warren Court, and after the McCarthyites went into hiding, but never too far from the surface.
My point certainly was not to call the Israeli’s Nazi’s. (My relatives also, though not Jewish, spent time in Concentration Camps – and no, not as guards. 🙂 But they were part of the ‘Forced Labor’ in those same camps that kept the Nazi death and war machines going). It was to point out that if they’re not more careful, that, in your words, the “bad, terrible, wrong, illegal, immoral, reprehensible, double plus ungood, and/or some seriously fucked-up shit,” can lead others to make that comparison. And in some people’s minds, it may stick, making Israel’s life even more difficult, and the possibility of peace ever more difficult to reach.
As I said earlier, I have supported Israel almost my whole life, but I can’t support what I see happening there regarding the settlements, the treatment of their Palestinian citizens, and those that live in the West Bank. And I certainly don’t condone the actions of Hamas and the different political groups amongst the Palestinians.
The ‘Two State” solution is, and has been, the only logical way to begin to at least begin to resolve some of the issues. And what Likud and Netanyahu are doing is not doing anything to help bring that about – quite the opposite in fact. Some of us would hope that Israel might prove to be the adult in the room, but I think Bibi is too much like our own right-wing Neo-cons – stubbornly married to the status quo, or worse, and unable to free themselves to think of better solutions because they fear any change to that status quo which, in their minds, has at least “worked” so far, and that any change may cost them power. Maybe it’s something else entirely, but that’s how I see it.
Thanks for the discussion so far. I hope you comment here again.
I asked this question a few years ago and the only answer I got that wasn’t total BS was a reminder that Israel is a rogue nuclear state upon which we exercise some influence. I don’t buy it anymore, Israel is totally a rogue nuclear state, but we actually don’t have any influence on them.
Gator, I’ll settle for seriously f-ed up shite.
I never use the Nazi title, except for our domestic true Nazis who are scary and real.
I think fewer murders is a good thing also, but the wall is bad on many levels.It is forced segregation.
An Israeli man I worked with many years ago was stabbed by a Palestinian man many years ago (for no apparent reason), nearly bleeding to death.I understand the perils of Living in Israel, and I also understand cause and effect.
Things were moving ahead under Clinton, but reversed course under Bush.
I believe it is currently a lost cause because of Netanyahu and his hard right administration.
The purpose of Maha’s post was not to beat up on Israel, but to evaluate the value of continuing support for a state that really does nothing for us, and is continuing to be an expensive burden (expensive in both dollars and world opinion).
The policies of Israel are indeed reckless and self destructive, and why we continue to support them should be up for serious debate (yeah, that’ll happen when “the other white meat” is on the menu in Tel Aviv and Terhan ! )
Maha, you place me in a bind. I am a longtime reader and admirer of your blog, for years now, and so I am resisting my natural inclination to call you names. But you just made such an analogy, and it is wrong both factually and morally. You should be ashamed of it. You’re also wrong that no such analogy was made previously. This was said: “They [the Israelis] look more and more like the Nazi’s they despise.” Pretty straightforward, no?
No, I said they were in danger of going down that road, and I believe that. I didn’t say they had arrived at the destination.
Don’t assume that Jews couldn’t possibly turn into racial oppressors because they were victims of the Nazis. Wherever you mix zealotry and nationalism, the danger is present. Past history grants no immunity.
Cund gulag: OK, you’re not ignorant or an asshole, and I appreciate your thoughtful response. But the remarks to which I originally objected were still super-sucky.
I guess the fancy word is “enantiadromia” I hope I spelled it correctly.
I probably shouldn’t comment, because just about everything I might have said, has been said. I have little to add but ignorance and sentiment, but that’s never stopped me before! It might be better to aim for sentiment.
Thanks for the link to Ira Chernus’ articles, I have always found his articles worthwhile and need to start reading him again. Uri Avnery used to write and post at “Common Dreams” and writes for “Ha’aretz”.
I think things have been going awry in Israel for some time. I was pretty young when the Sabra and Shatila massacres happened, but those events certainly made me rethink a bit.
One of the regulars commented that we are encouraging or bring out the worst in Israel and I think that has some merit. We are enablers, and we need to stop and exercise what little influence we have to change the hideous and deadly situation that has endured for decades and somehow, always seems to get worse. Maybe the vitriol in Netanyahu’s response shows that we DO still have some influence and that rethinking the relationship might give us a bit more leverage. We are not doing Israel, ourselves or anyone any good if we act like an overindulgent parent and and offer unconditional and unquestioning support.
I suppose part of the problem is an immense frustration with two cultures, which both have such a rich history of scholarship, art, humor, you name it, and yet seem unable to quit this dance of death and move on to the greatness that they both are capable of.
I know, pure schmaltz, which I think means, chickenfat.
Oh, anybody can turn into anything given enough time, I suppose. In my opinion, both logic and common decency require leaving the word “Nazi” out of discussions involving Israel. It is a gratuituously (and in most cases, intentionally) hurtful rhetorical flourish. Surely there are ways to express concern about Israel’s direction without bringing the Nazis into it.
Would you prefer “zealous nationalistic brutes”?
I’ve wondered about this bizarre attachment to Israel too. One thing I’ve been thinking about recently is how the history of Israel is kind of a weirdly condensed version of our own. You just have to see the occupied territories as the Wild West, with the settlers as cowboys and the Palestinians as Indians. They’ve even got this notion of Eretz Israel, which has definite echoes of our own Manifest Destiny–the basic idea being that this land is obviously meant for us, and we’ve just got to find a way to get rid of all of these people who’ve been living on our land for the past however many centuries without having to suffer the indignity of being compared to genocidal dictators.
I don’t know, there just might be something in the American psyche that responds to that. This is complete speculation, obviously, but it really isn’t difficult to imagine a modern version of Stagecoach set in the West Bank.
I like fancy words. Never heard of enantiodromia:
Your spelling was a little off (mine would be too), but I think your usage is probably inappropriate. It doesn’t seem consistent with the idea of becoming what we fear. Anyway, my $.02 side comment to an interesting discussion.
Stephen Stralka;
The anology to the wild west has some merit (manifest destiny,etc.)and seems to fit, but the intense nationalism and religious fervor, along with modern weapons is something else.The Muslim world sees the bruatility inflicted on The Palestinians (mostly women and children) which stokes the fire. I don’t think there is any other place on the planet where this is happening.
>>>>Would you prefer “zealous nationalistic brutes�
I can live with it. 🙂
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/05/26/aipacs-extremism/
Gator90,
I understand what you’re saying, and I respect your point about “Nazi’s,” but, let me ask you a question – would it be better if I didn’t say “Nazi’s,” but instead said Germans? Or, in the reference to that time frame, said, “zealous nationalistic brutes?”
I’m not trying to be a jerk or anything, or start an argument, but isn’t that just a semantical difference? The Soviets, the whole Eastern part of Europe, the Chinese, the Serb’s, the Bosnians, and the folks in Rwanda, all acted, at various times, like ‘zealous nationalistic brutes. To me, Nazi’s were the Coke AND Pepsi combined of all the different brutally oppressive ‘cola’s’ – but, they were just another brand of cola.
Never mind all of that. I’ll try to be more careful not to use the term Nazi’s near Israel – unless I again really, really, feel warranted.
Thanks for making me think. 🙂
Gator90… I’m not a big fan of Nazi analogies either…But when I see policies of collective punishment being implemented by Israel, I kinda think of the Nazi’s policies in the nations that were occupied by them during WWII. Think Warsaw ghetto! And I also see enough of a similarity to draw an analogy between the Anti-Jewish laws and the treatment of Jews, imposed in Nazi Germany and the harsh laws and treatment of the Palestinian people.
Swami — yes, they’re quite similar. Remember how the Jews of Europe formed organizations for the express purpose of destroying Germany? The Jewish terrorists blowing up buses and restaurants full of innocent German civilians? And who can forget the heartrending newsreels of German schoolchildren running for cover as the rockets rained down from Warsaw…
Seriously, do you have any idea what happened in the Warsaw Ghetto? Any clue at all? I’ll give you a hint — it didn’t involve steady population growth of the sort experienced by Palestinians throughout the existence of Israel…
Cund Gulag: You are wearing me down with your relentless good manners. I’d stay away from “German” — it would be an obvious Nazi reference and/or a collective association of the German people as a whole with the misconduct being criticized. (I’ve been to Germany several times and the people are wonderful.)
As to “semantics,” try this: go to Rwanda and find some Tutsi. Tell them they’re acting like a bunch of Hutus, then explain that the difference between Hutus and other mean people is a matter of mere semantics. See how that goes over.
The Jewish terrorists blowing up buses and restaurants full of innocent German civilians?
Are you referring to the King David Hotel and, Menacherm Begin with his Irgun buddies? I think they were innocent Brit’s
What’s the KD Hotel or the Irgun got to do with anything? My point was that the Israel/Palestine conflict has always been bilaterally (if sometimes asymmetrically) violent, whereas the relationship between Nazis and Jews was, er, different from that.
Gator90….Could you give me another hint please….the previous one didn’t work for me.
What’s the KD Hotel or the Irgun got to do with anything?
Zionist terrorism…What do you think?
Say what you will about the leaders of Israel —But, it was Ariel Sharon who restored my faith in believing that the God of Israel is a God of justice.
Gator90,
Everyone will attest to the fact that I love a good flame war as much as the next person, so my manners, while they can be relentless, are not always good.
And while I try not to be ignorant, I can, indeed, be quite an asshole! 🙂
It’s just that you while you’re impassioned about your perspective, you bring up some very good points, you’re respectful, and hence, you deserve measured and thoughtful reponses in kind.
But, if it’ll make you feel any better – “F**K off!” 😉
Have a great weekend.
Thanks, I do feel better now. 🙂
As an aside, it’s important not to cast a broad brush over all Israelis. After all, Net’s approval rating by the Israeli Parliament is only 37%. The people of Israel have long expressed opposition to and horror at some of the actions taken by their leaders (much like Americans do when their leaders commit outrages.) Years ago Sharon gave orders to Israeli soldiers which resulted in the mass slaying of Palestinians living in a refuge camp close to Lebanon. The Israeli people were outraged and expressed their outrage by thousands of them demonstrating in Jerusalem condemning Sharon and the soldiers.
What Americans must do is support the Israeli people, not the person or acts of the likes of a Sharon or a Netanyahu.
Remember Yitzak Rabin’s policy of breaking the bones of Palestinian protesters. That was a resounding success..I mean, of the thousands of Palestinian protesters who where maimed as a result of that policy only about 2 dozen didn’t survive their bone breaking sessions. It’s a shame that international outrage put the kibosh on such a wonderful and humane deterrent to protesting the occupation..
Yes, Moonbat. I should have checked the spelling or stay away from any word over three syllables. But, on the other hand, if my spellcheck didn’t catch it, I am off the hook.
The concept actually goes back to Herclitus, but in a more loosely defined sense. One problem is that in the real world the concept of “opposite” tends to lose its precision. … Regardless, I find it an interesting concept and one which usually sets me to thinking. I came to my senses enough to delete a tedious post originally written where the ellipsis is now.
——
I am not a big fan of flame wars, but, I think you guys have done a pretty good job of avoiding one. For my part, it is a lot easier to get people’s points when there is less heat and more detail. But that’s just my conflict avoiding way.
Gator90, it was a bit of a rough start, but, I appreciate your input. I don’t think you will any group of commenters more willing to listen than those here.
I hope for peace for all the “People of the Book”.
I never could understand why the Jews and Arabs couldn’t get along, after all they are brothers, or at least half-brothers. Aren’t they?
jugheadjack – yes, they are all Semites. Then again, I once asked my Yemeni driver (I lived there for a year) why the Yemeni people periodically kicked out the Jews living there and he replied, without hesitation, “because they’re very white and they smell funny.” I said something fatuous like but aren’t you all brothers, really. He looked at me like what’s-that-got-to-do-with-anything.
Jugheadjack,
The American civil war was brother against brother.
“because they’re very white and they smell funny”, wow, ‘same as British tourists at Disney World……
Felicity, very interesting that you lived in Yemen, Eric Margolis calls Yemen the land of the Queen of Sheba, exotic and mysterous; what are your thoughts?
It is the land of the Queen of Sheba and yes, exotic, mysterious, tribal, 5th world, quite literally a country that time has forgotten. At least when I lived there, execution of (supposed) criminals was carried out in town squares. The accused had his head chopped off, slowly if his family was poor, and thus not able to bribe the head-chopper, and quickly if his family was rich (bribes work wonders in poor countries.)
Children who cut school three times are put in shackles and kept in small box-like quarters, to give you an idea of Yemeni justice. The Yemeni day basically ends at 1:00 pm when, mostly the men, chew qat, a leafy drug that seems to keep one constantly awake at the same time keeping one in a state of lethargy. ( I tried it but couldn’t get past the ugly taste.) Men lock their wives in their houses before going off to work. They seem to take their Muslim faith with a huge grain of salt – in other words, lightly.
Besides being a fascinating year in my life, I have a modicum of understanding of the Arab people. I like them. And, like Kipling (I think it was he) said of India, I’d say of Yemen and much of the rest of that world, east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet. Political Washington, I might add, seems to have little if any understanding of the Arab culture, history or its people, a situation I find incomprehensible. They are not we, never will be, and the sooner we realize that the better it will be for all concerned.
jugheadjack… My guess would be that after a Diaspora of nearly 2000 years the connection to being a “jew” wouldn’t be along blood lines, but more of a spiritual connection by faith. That might account for Felicity’s mentioning that her driver commented that they( the Jews) were too white. Years ago Israel has an episode where they rescued Ethiopian Jews from persecution in Ethiopia and made a big deal out of the fact they were all Jews, but the Ethiopians that were rescued were descendant from Africa, and their only commonality with Israel was their faith.
White European Jews( of faith alone) who had little connection to the original nation of Israel were the one’s who formed modern day Israel and that’s why I think there is a standing division between Arab and Jew.