Old Tapes for the Old Year

American History, Iraq War

This morning I published this post on replaying old tapes at Crooks and Liars. Now, here is “Old Tapes” the podcast. Enjoy.

Share Button
7 Comments

7 Comments

  1. Mat Conly  •  Dec 31, 2006 @5:46 pm

    The essay on Vietnam/Iraq is somewhat confusing and confabulates facts. You indicate that somehow GG, apparently the Greatest Generation, were strong backers of the Vietnam war because of its WWII experience. A true history would suggest that most of Americans not only the GGs favored the Vietnam war in the beginning. It was only when it became like the Eveready battery that the public tired, just as it is now doing on Iraq.

    Of course Iraq is different because during Vietnam there was a draft and a strong part of the liberal community that was anti-war during Vietnam days supported the start of the Iraq war. So for the public to turn against Iraq is actually remarkable because 99% of it is not in threathened by it nor affected any adverse manner by the war and mainly because many of the former anti-war people of the Vietnam era are still pro-war.

    You will have to do a much better analysis of these facts to be have a cogent essay.

  2. Bucky Blue  •  Dec 31, 2006 @6:31 pm

    Here’s hoping that your post is in some way a tongue in cheek stab at humor. I understood Maha’s post much more easily than yours. Not to fight Maha’s fights for her, she is certainly capable of doing that herself, but I believe you are too general in your analysis. The classic Meathead/Archie loggerheads about the war did not, in my understanding, turn into Meathead supporting the Iraq War. Those who led the first Iraq War, Bush 41 et.al. seemed to get the lessons of Vietnam and produced a short victory, with few casualties and the decision that going after Saddham would get us into a mess, and the American people wouldn’t stand for it. Bush 41 fought in WWII and his top generals FOUGHT in Vietnam. Those that have produced the Iraq debacle were deferred several times to avoid their duty, were critical of how the war was fought and thought they could do better. Good job guys, (Cheny, Bush and Rummy) you’ve almost made Vietnam look sane by comparison.
    Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be saying that since 99% of us are not directly affected by the Iraq War we should not care so much? I think you’re wrong on quite a few angles of this; 3,000 dead for no apparent reason, half a trillion dollars wasted that could be used other places. But to continue with the thinking of Maha’s post, how will this affect how we act with force the next time we need to?

  3. maha  •  Dec 31, 2006 @6:45 pm

    You indicate that somehow GG, apparently the Greatest Generation, were strong backers of the Vietnam war because of its WWII experience.

    Not what I said. I wasn’t attempting to provide a history of the entire Vietnam War era, just a brief overview of how the old tapes of World War II played a part in getting us into it.

    A true history would suggest that most of Americans not only the GGs favored the Vietnam war in the beginning. It was only when it became like the Eveready battery that the public tired, just as it is now doing on Iraq.

    Right. But it’s also true that a larger portion of GGs supported the war for a longer time than was true of the younger generation.

    You will have to do a much better analysis of these facts to be have a cogent essay.

    And you’ll have to learn to read. Or listen, as the case may be.

  4. Doug Hughes  •  Dec 31, 2006 @6:58 pm

    Let me waigh in. Great post Barbara, related to the earlier theme that in the end of each war are planted the seeds for the next.

    Congratulations for having the courage to say – there WILL be consequences if we withdraw. That does not say we should not pull out, but you are being real, where folks at the extreme ends of the right and left are not.

    One thing I would add if I had wrote the article, and I wish I had, on the differences between ‘Nam and Iraq is the lessons that the military DID learn. Junior officers in the time of ‘Nam who stayed in (like Colin Powell) rewrote the book. Among the principles – use overwhelming force (as in the first Iraq war), and don’t get in unless you can see how you will get out. The pentagon knew how to do it – and when NOT to try, until Bush put Rummy in and Rummy (who is a civilian) rewrote the book, shifting to a reliance on gadgetry and a smaller standing military.

    Huge blame lies on the Joint Chiefs for not resisting Rumsfield publicly when he began implementing policies that were contrary to the principles they knew were sound.

    Before anyone points out that the military takes orders from the government let me provide a similie. If I hire a professional, licensed roofer, I can tell him what I want, what color shingles, etc. If I insist on telling him HOW to do the job, the roof will probably leak. This has been a lot more serious than a leaky roof, but it’s exactly HOW we got in this mess.

  5. erinyes  •  Dec 31, 2006 @7:14 pm

    Doug Hughes has a good point.As a tradesman, when the home owner that hires me gets a bit too involved…..
    I cut and run!
    Better to loose a little money than my reputation and a lot of money.( I give a notice first, of course.)
    On another note, I think religion, particularly the end of times theme has had a lot more influence in this war. Several people I know thought Saddam was “the Anti-Christ”, and that the battle for Baghdad was leading to Armegeddon. Of course, the new thinking by these folks points to Ahmadinejad as the new bad boy.
    Happy New Year………

  6. Swami  •  Dec 31, 2006 @7:23 pm

    My two cents…I don’t think the GG supported the Vietnam war per se..I think they supported our elected government with the understanding that they knew best what America’s interests were. I recall the slogans of “off the establishment” and “question authority” as being a central theme to define the divisions of that era. In Vietnam, as with Iraq, I suspect that the overwhelming majority of our population is clueless in knowledge to the point where making an informed decision about the necessity for war is a joke. They trust our government to be truthful and wise, which isn’t alway the case.

  7. Bonnie  •  Dec 31, 2006 @8:56 pm

    Not only did Matt at number 1 not listen; but he seems to have some strange ideas about 99 percent of the antiwar people of the 60s and 70s thinking they are prowar now. If that is true, I am part of one percent of the boomers. I don’t think so. Also, I have 10 friends from that period who were antiwar then; and still are. Perhaps, the eleven of us make up one percent of that group of Americans; but, as someone who works in statistics, it is highly improbable.