Update On Oregon

This is being reported on NBC:

The FBI and state police staked out a spot along the route to John Day to stop the caravan. At first, both vehicles complied with an order to pull over, but then the lead vehicle took off, the law enforcement official said.

It didn’t get very far, hitting a snow bank. Finicum, the official said, jumped out of that vehicle “brandishing a firearm.” He was shot and killed.

This account of things appears to be corroborated by a guy claiming to have been driving one of the two vehicles involved. A teenage girl who was with the Bundy crew claimed that Finicum had his hands up when he was shot, but she also said she was hiding on the floorboards of the truck when this happened.

See also Charles Pierce, in posts written before and after the arrests.

Also, too: Eyewitnesses knock down conspiracy theories about LaVoy Finicum dying on his knees

30 thoughts on “Update On Oregon

  1. “Finicum had his hands up when he was shot”

    Right lots of BS out there today, false flag all the usual bullshit. I’ve been spending some quality time and Beckkk’s and Alex J’s websites today, there are some seriously delusional motherfuckers out there! Scary to think these schmucks can go down to walmart and get a gun!

  2. Uncledad,
    They can also vote.
    And do.

    I get the feeling in the coming weeks that I’m going to watch with mounting disgust, as the rest of the like-minded armed loons around the country try to make a martyr out of this dead, mentally impaired gun nut.

    Also after this, will there spring-up an “Armed Treasonous Traitorous Old White Seditionist Bigots Lives Matter” movement?

    Maybe I shouldn’t give the NRA and the KKK any ideas, huh?

  3. There’s a few things that need to be said by the authorities. Yes, this is a far more stringent position than I had before there was a fatality, which i wanted to avoid.

    1. If you brandish weapons, you can’t claim your action is a ‘protest’.

    2. If your rhetoric is anti-government, and you go armed, and you seize public lands or buildings, the response will be to an armed insurrection ie. with potentially lethal force.

    Items one and two have to be explained – the right of free speech and freedom of assembly and peaceful protest, even including nonvioent civil disobedience will receive a restrained response, if there’s a technical or even serious violation of the law – but go armed against the government on government property or public property, you risk getting shot dead.

    3. The right of free speech is separate from the right to bear arms. You can’t combine them and invent a new constitutional amendment which legitimizes armed insurrection. There is now, and historically always has been, only one justification for revolution – you win. If you can not win – don’t begin. The two possible outcomes are prison or morgue.

    If you go against the government & lose the best you can hope for is jail. That’s the BEST possible outcome. I’ve done the risk-benefit analysis of a risk-your-life demonstration. You only have the ‘right’ to try it if you are comfortable with paying the price.

  4. Here’s some interesting info on LaVoy Finicum:


    Basically, the family’s income comes from fostering children through Catholic Charities of Arizona. The ranch seems to have been a loser, or at best paid for itself.

    And where does the money for Catholic Charities’ foster children program come from? Government contracts and grants: 80.2% in FY 2014.

    See: https://www.catholiccharitiesaz.org/about-us/finances

  5. Swami,

    It’s actually quite fun when the crazy’s are energized as they were yesterday. It’s pretty easy to get them to post really stupid racist stuff, perverse maybe, but once in a while it’s good for a laugh. Alex J’s commenters are much more radical than even Beck’s, same anti-goverment stuff minus the minimal restraint that fake christianity provides. Alex J’s minions are just pure conspiracy theory nut jobs. I suggested to one that this Oregon thing is all part of Jade Helm, he actually took the bait!

  6. “Still sad someone had to go and get himself killed”

    I’m not sad at all, he went there to die and he got what he wanted. To me these guys are no different than your run of the mill modern day terrorist. LeVoy’s demise means one less kook to pull the next stunt which will surely happen.

  7. “Still sad someone had to go and get himself killed”

    Not for me it isn’t..That clown was begging to get killed. The only sad thing about it was the idea that in the Conservative’s rush to destroy government they slashed funding for mental health thereby depriving LeVoy of services he so desperately needed.
    And the only positive,if you want to call it a positive, is that LeVoy set in place a cornerstone for building a tradition of sacrifice and devotion to cause that all future self styled militias will hopefully emulate. Not that I encourage the concept of self styled militias, but if they want to be taken seriously and be viewed as real men willing to die for a sacred cause, then they need to build a foundation of believability on the corpses of their martyrs.
    I see that Jon Ritzheimer was quick to beat a retreat by skedaddling back to Arizona when he sensed the time to ante up to their rhetoric was upon them. That’s one of the prime reasons why LeVoy’s sacrifice should have any meaning.. So guys like Ritzheimer can be given a small degree of credibility.

  8. Uncledad: I certainly agree with what you say about ridding the world of “kooks”, terrorists, etc. However, I also agree with Dan that it is sad someone had to get killed over the stupidity of the actions of those occupiers. You say LeVoy went there to die and he got what he wanted. I don’t think any of us can know what was in his mind or in the minds of any of the others. The sad thing to me is that maybe he really believed in what he was doing. He said he did.
    From your comments I deduce that you are not a religious person and neither am I. I do believe in higher powers and the creative force and that we are all a part of that. I wish we (humans) could always do the right thing and make the higher decision. But the condition of the world tells me otherwise. Back in the days when there were no computers, radios, not even telephones when someone died in a small village, the church rang the bells. Then someone would rush to find out who it was. In John Donne’s poem, he says: “Never send to ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee”. Just something to think about.

  9. Granny,

    I understand that my reaction sounds crass, the thing is, to me, these guys deserve nothing more. They were prepared to take the lives of men and women doing their jobs (law enforcement, BLM employees, etc), they went to this facility heavily armed looking for a fight. This man in particular announced on national TV that he was prepared to die. The feds and the local sheriff gave them all ample opportunity to surrender without violence, they chose not to.

  10. If I were the guy in charge of the Feds taking down the Bundy clowns, I would have first dug a moat around their “sanctuary”, filled it with septic tank pump out material, Blasted the Bundys with Rap Music, and dumped green stinky slime on them from day one. If you sit back and ignore them, your an enabler. If you drone strike the bastards, you’re a tyrant. Have some fun and green slime the bastards. No need for killing.

  11. I don’t know, erinyes…Seems to me that the government should to be responsive to the needs of its citizens… and the Bundy gang were aching for an armed confrontation. It only seems proper that they should have been afforded the dignity and respect of an Alamo type confrontation.

  12. Uncledad, it’s easy to sound crass and to relate to Pilate when one is confronted with a deep need for martyrdom.

    Thank goodness we have people who are willing to deal with this crap so we don’t have to.

  13. Uncledad: Your reaction does not sound crass, it’s a perfectly human reaction and I do feel the same way. And I do not think this guy really wanted to die. He was trying to act like a stud and prove his manhood. The thing is, when you choose the behavior, you choose the consequences. He just couldn’t see that it would end the way it did. I do not feel sad for him personally. We all have to die sometime. And I definitely think the authorities did the right thing. Those people were terrorists and bullies. They cannot be allowed to continue doing stupid unlawful deeds. I just feel sad that it had to happen that way. The same way I feel sad when a criminal is executed or young men are sent off to war. I just wish the world was different. But I guess I can’t have everything I want.

  14. They are a bunch of immature males stuck in adolescence. I wouldn’t wish a teenager’s death just because (s)he does something stupid.

    Look at these folks – even with enormous government subsidies and other handouts, they barely live comfortably, and are utter failures at their jobs (ranching). Tough job, to be sure, but they aren’t any good at it, even having been given the land for free (inheritances) with all the improvements, essentially free grazing rights, and a whole host of other gifts.

    Just like adolescents to blame someone else for their inabilities.

  15. The FBI has released a video – shot from a helicopter – of the action: Finicum is shown as he rams his vehicle into a snowbank on the left side of the road, leaps out of his vehicle and runs away from it and backwards with his arms OUT – NOT UP – probably a matter of balancing in the deep-ish snow – and when he’s a little way to the rear of his vehicle, starts ramming his right hand into his left shoulder area. We never see a gun in his hand, but it absolutely looks like he is trying to go for one. And that’s when he is shot. He is NOT in any kind of a surrender posture.

  16. Crooks and Liars has the aerial video the the attempted roadblock running and it clearly shows Finicum reaching quickly for his waistband, crosswise, to draw a gun before he was shot. Looks like he thought he’d be able to do this to shot an agent off to his left by drawing a gun that the agent wouldn’t see, spinning as he did so. Finicum didn’t notice another agent to his left who had a position from which he could see the move.

  17. Looks to me like they gave old LaVoy more rope than they gave Tamir Rice or Walter Scott or Laquan McDonald or………..? Lots of debate among tea-tards about if he had his hands up? Bottom line is he attempted to ram through a roadblock, almost hit a cop, jumped out of the vehicle and reached into his coat. Not to mention the fact that he was already committing a felony by fleeing the first traffic stop. Good thing he wasn’t black or he would have had to been picked out of the snow in pieces!

  18. I watched the entire FBI film. I agree that Finicum seems to reach into his jacket, and I’m sure that if I were a law enforcement officer under those circumstances, I would assume, as the state trooper did, that he’s going for a firearm. After all, the Malheur Takeover Gang was very ostentatiously armed. Still, I found myself more than a little sad as Finicum fell to the ground–sort of along the lines of “Any man’s death diminishes me…”

    I also feel deeply for the state trooper who killed Finicum. It must be terrible to kill another human being. I hope the state of Oregon offers him whatever counseling he might need.

    All in all, a sad outcome.

  19. It will be interesting to see if Finicum had a terminal illness. That could be a factor in his willingness to confront an overwhelming force.

  20. Swami: Thanks for that Roy Rogers video. He was my first hero. And Trigger, what a horse. At least that’s what I thought when I was 6 yo. My plan was to grow up and marry Roy but unfortunately Dale Evans got him first.
    Yep, ol’ LaVoy definitely bit off more than he could chew. RIP

  21. Poor Ammon.

    He put his pistol-butt buddies ahead of his family, and now potentially faces some significant jail time.

    Maybe you shoulda taken up bowling, instead, huh Son?

  22. Thanks, grannyeagle.. It’s nice to know that somebody enjoys good music. I should have posted: Take me Home, Country Roads…I’m sure a sentiment similar to lyrics in that song—” take me home to the place where I belong” — is bouncing around inside Ammon Bundy’s head about now.

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